@CelluloidFan said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

She's Gotta Have It

Summer of Sam

Mo' Better Blues

Inside Man

25th Hour

etc...

Spike Lee has done plenty that isn't wrapped in racism/politics. Sorry to bust your narrative.

I just happen to disagree. I just felt like saying that, as the thread starter. I mean, those films you mentioned by name don't happen to be that overtly about race/racism, that much is true. But whatever.

That's all I was pointing out. He does plenty that is not overtly about racism, so give the guy his due credit, he's not a one-trick pony, that's just fairness to observe/acknowledge the factual reality. And, again, I concede/recognize that he specializes in, or spends most of time talking about racism, but every movie-maker has a default. Arnie's done some comedy, but he's mostly action. Tom Hanks has been a bad guy, of sorts, but he's mostly a dramatic good guy these days. Cruise has done Born on the Fourth of July drama and even Tropic Thunder comedy, but he's mostly known for action. And yes, maybe a default about racism is "no fun" or less "entertaining" than escaping with explosions and car chases, that's fine, some people don't want to go to movies to be immersed in interpretations of reality, they want fantasy escapism, I get it.

However, until America reckons with its racism, people can't be called out for continuing to shed light on the extent of the issue. Fragility to facing it only helps perpetuate it. If you're tired of movies about racism, get active in trying to denounce white supremacy and the systems that perpetuate it. And if you think it's tiring hearing about racism and white supremacy, imagine what it feels like to live under it.

As a black person, I'd like to say that i don't live "under" racism. White supremacy is B.S. that I put up with on a daily basis... but I don't live "under" those white folks who perpetuate it.

"Put up with" / "live under", tomayto-tomahto. I was simply referring to living within a system that is rife with systematic mechanisms to advantage some at the expense of others. You may not feel you, individually, are "under" anything, but our people (people of the African diaspora) are indeed blanketed by double standards, tiers, and obstacles aimed specifically at us, the merit of our actions notwithstanding.

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the thread.

I do try to encourage and support civil discourse. I'm human, don't always succeed, but that is my north star, and I appreciate all those who are guided similarly, so, thanks, to you too, for your efforts here.

Cheers.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@CelluloidFan said:

As a black person, I'd like to say that i don't live "under" racism. White supremacy is B.S. that I put up with on a daily basis... but I don't live "under" those white folks who perpetuate it.

"Put up with" / "live under", tomayto-tomahto. I was simply referring to living within a system that is rife with systematic mechanisms to advantage some at the expense of others. You may not feel you, individually, are "under" anything, but our people (people of the African diaspora) are indeed blanketed by double standards, tiers, and obstacles aimed specifically at us, the merit of our actions notwithstanding.

"White supremacy" is bullshit. It has become social suicide to even hint at being that. Meanwhile I could go on social media and say I hate white people and how they should all die and I won't be banned or censored because it's okay to hate white people. Even other white people (white women specifically) say how much they hate white people or white men specifically and that's okay because it's no longer okay to be white without kissing the ass of other races.

In America there is nothing stopping black people from achieving success. Africans immigrate here and are successful. There are financial aid progress for black people only, companies are encouraged to have more black people in their company, and in the military promotes black women faster because they're black AND female (checks 2 diversity boxes). If you're white and unarmed and killed by police no one cares, if you're black and killed by police you are a martyr even if you were breaking the law, had a past criminal history, or were knowingly dating a drug dealer at the time.

There is nothing stopping black Americas from having good credit in order to get bank loans, getting married to avoid being a single mothers, eating right and exercising in order to cut down on obesity rates and health related deaths linked to heart disease or child birth, using birth control/condoms to cut down on abortions, unwanted pregnancies or STDs (the black community has a huge STD rate), or learning how to speak English so we don't sound like hoodrats.

But all these things are encouraged or at least not looked down upon in our community. Instead, we protect our trash. Instead of opening more businesses or saving/investing our money we spend it all on really dumb stuff like then demand reparations that many of us would just spend on the same useless bullshit. And none of the books, movies, music or entertainment we produce would dare address any of these issues and instead we paint ourselves as helpless victims that are incapable of changing our situations because of the omnipresent threat of "racism". This is what keeps us in mental bondage.

"White supremacy" can't do as much damage to the black community as we have done to ourselves. Under Jim Crow we had a tighter knit communities, mutual respect among our men and women, higher marriage rates than the white community, and now we have the highest single mother rate and children being raised without good father figures, and we celebrate that fact. And we are so easily manipulated by white liberals that we voted in mass for a presidential candidate that mass reincarcerated black men and ensured a generation of black people grew up without their brothers, fathers, uncles, husbands, sons, etc because they painted the other guy as a racist even though he objectively wasn't, but as I said easily manipulated.

Much of these ties into our culture. Yes, Spike Lee has made a few films that haven't focused on racism, but the vast majority of his films do and focus on painting us as victims and I'm personally sick of it. I can name half a dozen "black" films that paint black men as evil and black women as victims vs painting black men as good husbands/fathers and black women as happily married. There's nothing stopping Spike Lee or other black filmmakers from making movies/TV shows where black people are successful, heroic, smart, married, and have good father figures without bringing up racism but they don't and we can't blame racism for that.

@cswood said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@CelluloidFan said:

As a black person, I'd like to say that i don't live "under" racism. White supremacy is B.S. that I put up with on a daily basis... but I don't live "under" those white folks who perpetuate it.

"Put up with" / "live under", tomayto-tomahto. I was simply referring to living within a system that is rife with systematic mechanisms to advantage some at the expense of others. You may not feel you, individually, are "under" anything, but our people (people of the African diaspora) are indeed blanketed by double standards, tiers, and obstacles aimed specifically at us, the merit of our actions notwithstanding.

"White supremacy" is bullshit. It has become social suicide to even hint at being that. Meanwhile I could go on social media and say I hate white people and how they should all die and I won't be banned or censored because it's okay to hate white people. Even other white people (white women specifically) say how much they hate white people or white men specifically and that's okay because it's no longer okay to be white without kissing the ass of other races.

In America there is nothing stopping black people from achieving success. Africans immigrate here and are successful. There are financial aid progress for black people only, companies are encouraged to have more black people in their company, and in the military promotes black women faster because they're black AND female (checks 2 diversity boxes). If you're white and unarmed and killed by police no one cares, if you're black and killed by police you are a martyr even if you were breaking the law, had a past criminal history, or were knowingly dating a drug dealer at the time.

There is nothing stopping black Americas from having good credit in order to get bank loans, getting married to avoid being a single mothers, eating right and exercising in order to cut down on obesity rates and health related deaths linked to heart disease or child birth, using birth control/condoms to cut down on abortions, unwanted pregnancies or STDs (the black community has a huge STD rate), or learning how to speak English so we don't sound like hoodrats.

But all these things are encouraged or at least not looked down upon in our community. Instead, we protect our trash. Instead of opening more businesses or saving/investing our money we spend it all on really dumb stuff like then demand reparations that many of us would just spend on the same useless bullshit. And none of the books, movies, music or entertainment we produce would dare address any of these issues and instead we paint ourselves as helpless victims that are incapable of changing our situations because of the omnipresent threat of "racism". This is what keeps us in mental bondage.

"White supremacy" can't do as much damage to the black community as we have done to ourselves. Under Jim Crow we had a tighter knit communities, mutual respect among our men and women, higher marriage rates than the white community, and now we have the highest single mother rate and children being raised without good father figures, and we celebrate that fact. And we are so easily manipulated by white liberals that we voted in mass for a presidential candidate that mass reincarcerated black men and ensured a generation of black people grew up without their brothers, fathers, uncles, husbands, sons, etc because they painted the other guy as a racist even though he objectively wasn't, but as I said easily manipulated.

Much of these ties into our culture. Yes, Spike Lee has made a few films that haven't focused on racism, but the vast majority of his films do and focus on painting us as victims and I'm personally sick of it. I can name half a dozen "black" films that paint black men as evil and black women as victims vs painting black men as good husbands/fathers and black women as happily married. There's nothing stopping Spike Lee or other black filmmakers from making movies/TV shows where black people are successful, heroic, smart, married, and have good father figures without bringing up racism but they don't and we can't blame racism for that.

Alright, brah.

Here are a few thoughts on your post:

The longer white supremacy exists, the more of an effect it has on its subjects' thinking. It'd be the same way for any other system of domination of one people by another, i.e. "black supremacy," etc. The longer it lasts, the more people begin to approve of it.

It seems to me that you wish to go back to the past, referencing the Jim Crow days. This is impossible. We can only move forward.

Of course no one wants to be painted as a victim.

@cswood said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@CelluloidFan said:

As a black person, I'd like to say that i don't live "under" racism. White supremacy is B.S. that I put up with on a daily basis... but I don't live "under" those white folks who perpetuate it.

"Put up with" / "live under", tomayto-tomahto. I was simply referring to living within a system that is rife with systematic mechanisms to advantage some at the expense of others. You may not feel you, individually, are "under" anything, but our people (people of the African diaspora) are indeed blanketed by double standards, tiers, and obstacles aimed specifically at us, the merit of our actions notwithstanding.

"White supremacy" is bullshit.

Our opinions differ diametrically here.

Meanwhile I could go on social media and say I hate white people and how they should all die and I won't be banned or censored because it's okay to hate white people. Even other white people (white women specifically) say how much they hate white people or white men specifically and that's okay because it's no longer okay to be white without kissing the ass of other races.

Balderdash. I have never, and I will never, conflate white supremacy with being white. They are not the same. Calling out white supremacy is not hating on white people. At all. I've argued that white supremacy also hurts white people. I break this all down here https://medium.com/@DuaneAubin/is-there-a-difference-between-being-white-and-being-a-white-supremacist-e7f51aa520de and it's important that people understand the difference - if these two things continue to be muddled, there can be no constructive dialog.

In America there is nothing stopping black people from achieving success.

The documented proof against this is readily available. From Wilmington to Tulsa to sharecroppers being hanged for claiming their Constitutional rights, arguing against the overwhelming reality is a non-starter. Are there examples of success among Black people and failure among white people? Sure, there are. There are exceptions to the rules, but the exceptions are such because there are rules. There are tendencies. It's not all or nothing, it's more like the 80/20 rule. At any rate, there is not nothing stopping Black people from achieving success. It's not everything stopping them, but it's not nothing, there are systemic barriers that tend to hold back some more than others.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Nice strawman try, but I was talking about BEHAVIOUR (what people DO, verbs) not skin colour (not what people ARE). And how they "look" was a reference to attire - how they dress (again, a verb), as well as how they walk (verb) and talk (verb).

BTW, you must hold a narrow, essentialist view of black people (and hell, anyone) if you believe that skin color plays that huge a factor in who people "ARE." I mean, you are arguing it over the internet, so it must be a pretty significant belief of yours. I mean, people see me as "light-skinned" but I don't see myself as all that light, compared to others in my family, both living and dead. Indeed, I sometimes tend to see my skin as darker than it actually is. I'll bet you've never heard the term "middle skinned," but I prefer to think of myself as being on the lighter side of that range. Of course, if someone were to bring over a black person whose skin was precisely in the "center" of all the black skin color variants and put him/her beside me, I'd most likely be seen as light-skinned in comparison to him/her. However, some of us have the option of seeing ourselves as both "light" and "dark." Your post comes off as very telling about you. My point is, we all have a choice in how we see ourselves and decide to be in the world. Again, I've known some darker-skinned folks whose personalities and characters indicate a sort of political conservatism that falls far from the range of politics that many of us would consider to be "black" or "pro-black." Do you see how their skin tone hasn't got that much to do with who they are?

To a certain extent, your use of language in your post had a sort of bullying quality to it that overdetermined my response to it (use of all caps, bold and italics to make a point all at the same time), but in retrospect, I felt compelled to write about this.

@CelluloidFan said:

BTW, you must hold a narrow, essentialist view of black people (and hell, anyone) if you believe that skin color plays that huge a factor in who people "ARE."

I know very few people who are not from Malaysia who claim Malay heritage and pride therein. What/where/when someone is born is a significant factor in "who" people "are." I have a friend who retired recently and couldn't wait to set up his retirement home in...Guyana. Why Guyana? Do you want to guess why? If you guessed, it's because that's where he was born, you'd be right. For him, Guyana is the greatest place in the world. But is it, objectively? Of course not. For him, it's "home", and that's not based on his choice, he did not choose to be born in Guyana. But who he is and how he identifies has a great deal to do with factors that are beyond his control.

I am not disagreeing with you that every individual has choice and choices. I hear you on this. You don't want all-caps, ok, so read this again. I agree with you that people do indeed have choices. He could have fallen in love with Bali or Madagascar or San Francisco. Yes, of course, people have ranges of choices available to them.

But I am asserting, based on research and observation, that whatever choices we have are indeed limited by circumstances beyond our control. You would not have been able to make all the choices you've made in your life if you were born blind, or born without arms, or born into a family of immense wealth. Sure, you'd have had a different set of choices available for you to make; but not the same choices any other person, in different circumstances, would make.

I mean, you are arguing it over the internet, so it must be a pretty significant belief of yours.

It takes (at least) two to argue, and here you are as well.

I mean, people see me as "light-skinned" but I don't see myself as all that light, compared to others in my family, both living and dead.

Sure. But most people who run into you on the street won't ever see you within the context of "the others in your family." Especially cops.

Indeed, I sometimes tend to see my skin as darker than it actually is. I'll bet you've never heard the term "middle skinned," but I prefer to think of myself as being on the lighter side of that range.

You can "think of yourself" however you want. I'm happy to accept you as you present yourself. But, for every one of you, there's a Rachel Dolezal out there who'll find out real fast that society doesn't always just accept how one thinks of themselves.

Black sharecroppers in 1917 thought of themselves as farmers , equal to white farmers - white people hanged over 100 of them to send a clear message that they vehemently did not agree.

Were those Black sharecroppers able to live out their choices in how they thought of themselves? No.

Did their assertion that they think of themselves as equal compel society at that time to accord them the same rights and freedoms of their white counterparts? No.

WW2 veterans got all kinds of mortgage opportunities...well, the white ones, anyway. Did Black WW2 veterans benefit from the home ownership programs because they thought of themselves as equal to their white counterparts? Nope.

How many mass murderers in the last three years have we seen "arrested"? Dollars to donuts, what colour is their skin? But when you hear a person failed to signal a lane change, and got 8 bullets, was it because failure to signal a lane change is such an egregious crime that they deserve to be summarily executed without sentence, conviction, or even a trial? Is it because they made the wrong choices? Dollars to donuts, what colour was their skin?

Not only does skin colour play a significant factor in the choices one make for themselves, it also plays a significant factor in how people are treated by others.

Your post comes off as very telling about you.

Likewise.

My point is we all have a choice in how we see ourselves and decide to be in the world.

And, again, I agree. You don't like all-caps, so I won't use them. But please read that again so I don't have to use all-caps. I agree that we all have "a choice" or "choices" in how we see ourselves and decide to be in the world. I understand and agree with your point.

My question is, are you either willing or capable of grasping my point? Once again, my point is that our choices alone do not determine our outcomes - the choices of others, as well as circumstances, also play a factor in our potential outcomes. George Floyd's choices did not determine that he should be killed by a cop on the street. He'd been living with his afflictions, addictions, demons - he was killed by someone else's choices and actions. - We have limited control of how others see/treat us.

Again, I've known some darker-skinned folks whose personalities and characters indicate a sort of political conservatism that falls far from the range of politics that many of us would consider to be "black" or "pro-black." Do you see how their skin tone hasn't got that much to do with who they are?

By those examples, sure. But can you not see how there are plenty of other examples, like the ones I mentioned above (sharecroppers, WW2 vets, etc.) demonstrate clearly that other factors are as signifcant?

To a certain extent, your use of language in your post had a sort of bullying quality to it

Again, likewise. You ought to ease off making statements about others that seems more like projection.

in retrospect, I felt compelled to write about this.

I'm all for conversation, and disagreement, because I don't know everything, and all other people have lived experiences from which I can learn, as I have experiences to share for others to take from it what they will.

Agree or disagree, one love.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Not only does skin colour play a significant factor in the choices one make for themselves, it also plays a significant factor in how people are treated by others.

I'm not gonna argue with you over all of your "counterpoints" because that'd take too long, and it defeats the purpose of this, as far as I'm concerned. I'll just address a few of them. When you post the above point, you come off condescending as hell. I'm well aware of this thing of how people are treated by others based on their skin color. I wanted to point out that there's more to what makes people who they are than just that.

Of course, if someone were to bring over a black person whose skin was precisely in the "center" of all the black skin color variants and put him/her beside me, I'd most likely be seen as light-skinned in comparison to him/her. However, some of us have the option (or perhaps, privilege) of seeing ourselves as both "light" and "dark."

Your post comes off as very telling about you.

Likewise.

Thank you. I tried to be as honest as I possibly could in my post, so if that ingenuousness comes off, great!

My point is we all have a choice in how we see ourselves and decide to be in the world.

And, again, I agree. You don't like all-caps, so I won't use them. But please read that again so I don't have to use all-caps. I agree that we all have "a choice" or "choices" in how we see ourselves and decide to be in the world. I understand and agree with your point. You seem either unwilling or incapable of grasping my point, which is, once again, that our choices alone do not determine our outcomes - the choices of others, as well as circumstances, also play a factor in our potential outcomes.

Firstly, thanks for not using all-caps with me. I don't think anyone would enjoy being addressed with all-caps, italics, and bold letters all at the same time, which is how you addressed me earlier in this thread. I think it's that type of bullying behavior that ensures why not that many newcomers join the forum. Secondly, your telling me "to read that again so (you) don't have to use all-caps" is borderline insulting. What do you think I am, stupid? You know what kind of a reader I am? You follow this up by stating that I may be "incapable of grasping (your) point," based on, I guess, the weak argument of your earlier post that I mentioned. That is insulting and violent, as well.

Look, I hate to sound like a Spider-Man movie, but the truth is, we always have a choice in things. Some people say that personality and environment play a part in who a person becomes. I'm stating that we have personality, we have character, we have will power, we have many things that make us who we are, and I feel that plays a heck of a bigger role in things than skin color does. I didn't mean to dismiss or belittle the experiences of, say, dark-skinned black people who feel that society looks at their complexions as a detriment. But we always have a choice in things. We don't have to internalize the politics of domination and use them on our black counterparts in a grisly battle of internecine violence, to the death.

I feel that you need to be careful when you start looking at black people and pre-judging us, based on our complexions, in a reductive assessment that that's who or what "they are." I used the darker-skinned black people with conservative viewpoints as an example of this for you. Yours sounds like an essentialist viewpoint, and black folks deserve better than that.

You're a very subtly insulting person to me in your posts, DRD, and that hinders the possibility for true understanding to be reached between us. As MLK once said, an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. I won't bother to break that statement down in analysis, but I'm trying not to resort to what you did in your counterpoints.

What's really fucking frightening is, I still feel that the violence, the condescension, and the insults really do have something to do with my color.

@CelluloidFan said:

I feel that you need to be careful when you start looking at black people and pre-judging them,

Us. I'm Black, too.

black folks deserve better than that.

Yes, we do.

You're a very subtly insulting person to me in your posts

Again with the projection, which I'm putting in effort to look beyond.

What's really fucking frightening is, I still feel that the violence, the condescension, and the insults really do have something to do with my color.

I know what you're trying to say here but I'll just take a different angle and say two things: first, "me too" - which was my point; and second, to whatever degree you think this conversation is violent, I'd say it pales in comparison to the systemic violence I've been talking about through this entire thread, and there's no way violence exists in this conversation worse than the violence I've been referring to out in wider society.

One last point - clearly, we as two Black people have different ideas about how we fit into society, and rightly so. Black people are not a monolith. Dialog within our "community" (for lack of a better term) is valuable because we don't all walk the same walk in this life. It behooves us both to both share our views as learn from others. I certainly haven't "got it all figured out", nor do I know anyone who has. Surely, we can agree on that, even if we may not be enjoying how we're communicating with each other in this particular thread at this time - we'll both have good days and not-so-good days.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@CelluloidFan said:

I feel that you need to be careful when you start looking at black people and pre-judging them,

Us. I'm Black, too.

black folks deserve better than that.

Yes, we do.

You're a very subtly insulting person to me in your posts

Again with the projection, which I'm putting in effort to look beyond.

What's really fucking frightening is, I still feel that the violence, the condescension, and the insults really do have something to do with my color.

I know what you're trying to say here but I'll just take a different angle and say two things: first, "me too" - which was my point; and second, to whatever degree you think this conversation is violent, I'd say it pales in comparison to the systemic violence I've been talking about through this entire thread, and there's no way violence exists in this conversation worse than the violence I've been referring to out in wider society.

One last point - clearly, we as two Black people have different ideas about how we fit into society, and rightly so. Black people are not a monolith. Dialog within our "community" (for lack of a better term) is valuable because we don't all walk the same walk in this life. It behooves us both to both share our views as learn from others. I certainly haven't "got it all figured out", nor do I know anyone who has. Surely, we can agree on that, even if we may not be enjoying how we're communicating with each other in this particular thread at this time - we'll both have good days and not-so-good days.

I'm gonna let this little back-and-forth of ours end, because I didn't sleep well last night..... but I want you to know that you're not slick at all. The symbolism in that statement of yours, "it pales in comparison to the systemic violence I've been talking about," is not lost on me. The statement falls exactly in line with your abuse that I've been referring to throughout the thread. It's just stupid. And then you started your post by stating, "I know what you're trying to say here, but...." Yeah, right! I disagree with your last comment in your first paragraph - your violence in this conversation is every bit as destructive as anything else that's been mentioned in this thread.

I see that you edited the hell out of your previous post to me after posting it - that says something about your intentions.

There comes a time when idle chit-chat becomes irrelevant, and that's where you and I are now.

@CelluloidFan said:

There comes a time when idle chit-chat becomes irrelevant, and that's where you and I are now.

You're no slicker. And if this was idle chit-chat and abuse to you, then we (finally) agree on something - we are done here.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I see "joint" in two ways. First, a joint is a place. "My joint" is my place and, in my place, it's my rules. Lee does things his way, like any director. This is a just a reminder - nay, a warning - that we as spectators are entering Spike's place when we watch one of his movies.

I dunno about a "warning," (that's very Draconian sounding) but duh, if you ever had the chance to work with S.L., why wouldn't you pipe down while he does things "his way?" Granted, in the UK I think screenwriters have more influence than they do in the states, but haha, S.L. is a legendary director. I mean....

@CelluloidFan said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I see "joint" in two ways. First, a joint is a place. "My joint" is my place and, in my place, it's my rules. Lee does things his way, like any director. This is a just a reminder - nay, a warning - that we as spectators are entering Spike's place when we watch one of his movies.

I dunno about a "warning," (that's very Draconian sounding) but duh, if you ever had the chance to work with S.L., why wouldn't you pipe down while he does things "his way?"

I was referring to "we" the audience. People tend to have strong opinions about how movie makers make their movies, especially when the movie maker is from the community where men were often called "boy" and less eligible for being dignified as a man.

Spike, in my interpretation, came up with this (as far as I know) unique expression to state outright that he's not seeking approval from "the man".

Be clear - I don't know what he intended by it. Haven't read anything of him speaking to the question. This is my interpretation - nothing more or less than that.

S.L. is a legendary director. I mean....

We agree. That he is.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@CelluloidFan said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I see "joint" in two ways. First, a joint is a place. "My joint" is my place and, in my place, it's my rules. Lee does things his way, like any director. This is a just a reminder - nay, a warning - that we as spectators are entering Spike's place when we watch one of his movies.

I dunno about a "warning," (that's very Draconian sounding) but duh, if you ever had the chance to work with S.L., why wouldn't you pipe down while he does things "his way?"

I was referring to "we" the audience. People tend to have strong opinions about how movie makers make their movies, especially when the movie maker is from the community where men were often called "boy" and less eligible for being dignified as a man.

Ha ha, everybody has an opinion--I'm quite sure of that, be they pro-black, racist, or an animal rights advocate, etc. I was referring to Cell, (myself) although I still find your interpretation of the "joint" to be somewhat Draconian even just for viewing audiences. We clearly aren't on the same page in this discussion, so I guess I will leave it alone now.

S.L. is a legendary director. I mean....

We agree. That he is.