@NotSafeforFun wrote:

Item: Mother
Language: en-US
Type of Problem: Incorrect_content

Thanks for your report!

Extra Details: The English title is officially stylised as ‘MOTHER' in the text on English-language Netflix and the logo on Netflix https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81292901 the text on its sales agent’s site https://www.gaga.co.jp/intls/mother/ and the text and logo on its Japanese website https://mother2020.jp and Japanese posters.

I just watched the movie and the on screen title is also stylised in this way:

https://imgur.com/a/ggj2O1B

The sales agent’s English poster contradicts all this by capitalising it as ‘mother’, but as the movie’s director, writer and production companies likely had nothing to do with this poster, which was not meant for the general public but just to sell the movie to distributors, I think that can be regarded as not reflecting the creators’ intent.

Yes, I agree with you. I just changed the title and locked it!

In fact, if the title screen has just "MOTHER" on it in Roman characters and no "マザー" at all, does that mean that the original, Japanese title on TMDB should be just "MOTHER" (with "MOTHER マザー" as an alternative title for Japan, labelled as "promotional title")?

Or do you use what the Japanese official website and Japanese databases state to be the official title (in this case, "MOTHER マザー")?

Japanese movies in particular often have a disconnect between what is on the full feature’s title card (which might be in only Roman characters) and what is the official title given in trailers, on posters and on the Web (which will be transliterated into katakana, include both the Roman and kana spellings, and/or add a subtitle).

I guess they’re used to US and other Western movies having only a Roman-character title on the movie itself but being marketed under a Japanese-character title, so do the same with their own films.

@NotSafeforFun wrote:

In fact, if the title screen has just ‘MOTHER’ on it in Roman characters and no ‘マザー’ at all, does that mean that the original, Japanese title on TMDB should be just ‘MOTHER’ (with ‘MOTHER マザー’ as an alternative title for Japan, labelled as “promotional title”)?

No!

Or do you use what the Japanese official website and Japanese databases state to be the official title (in this case, ‘MOTHER マザー’)?

Yes, exactly! Well, kind of...

According to our general rule in the Contribution Bible, in this specific case the original title has to be the title that was used in Japan first:

"The original title is usually the title of the original version of the film when it is first officially released locally."

This is a Japanese movie -> so the original title has to be the first theatrical title in Japan -> and I assume that was "MOTHER マザー". Apparently, the Japanese distributor and production company is Star Sands (not sure if it's the only one) -> and they use this long title (the same way the official website uses it):

https://starsands.com/lineup/mother.html
https://mother2020.jp/

Japanese movies in particular often have a disconnect between what is on the full feature’s title card (which might be in only Roman characters) and what is the official title given in trailers, on posters and on the Web (which will be transliterated into katakana, include both the Roman and kana spellings, and/or add a subtitle).

I guess they’re used to US and other Western movies having only a Roman-character title on the movie itself but being marketed under a Japanese-character title, so do the same with their own films.

I'm not an expert on this topic at all, but this case here seems easier. As far as I can tell, all the official Japanese sources I just checked use the long title and I'm confident that the Japanese version of the film uses this title card, too. To answer this question definitely, someone has to watch the original Japanese version and look at the title card. I'm pretty sure they used the long title.

Considering that the rest of the ending credits are in Japanese characters, I'm pretty sure that the title card that's on Netflix outside Japan is the same as that the movie had when played in cinemas in Japan.

It looks like the opening credits were changed specifically for Netflix (by the facts that not only are they in English but Netflix is mentioned in them, but Netflix weren't involved in its production nor its distribution in Japan; they just licensed it from GAGA for other many countries) but I do not think that only the title card would have been changed while leaving the rest of the end credits in Japanese. There's even a fade between the title card and some of the Japanese-character credits; it really doesn't look like something that was changed from an already finished credit sequence just for outside Japan. We cannot be absolutely certain of this if we weren't in Japan when it was playing in cinemas, but that's what I'd conclude is most likely from the evidence available.

I've never been to Japan, but I've seen quite a lot of Japanese movies at film festivals and on theatrical releases in my country, and in some of these the credits are in Japanese characters but the title card is in Roman characters, or the ending credits are in Japanese but the opening credits are in English (I am not talking about versions of the movies in which all the credits have been converted to English, as has been done for US-dubbed versions of Pokémon and Studio Ghibli movies and is obviously not how the films originally looked in Japanese cinemas).

For another example, the movie advertised in Japan as "スマグラー おまえの未来を運べ", if my memory is correct (and Japanese Wikipedia suggests it is), has opening credits that are in English, and the title card shows only "SMUGGLER", in all-upper-case Roman characters.

While what's promoted in Japan and named in its ending credits as "夜明け告げるルーのうた" has opening credits that are all in English and a title card that names it only as "Lu over the wall" (and how elaborately animated those opening credits are makes me pretty sure they weren't done only for outside Japan).

I'm inclined from the evidence to think these weren't changed just for my country: firstly, they are either movies that weren't licensed and released in my country at the time; they could only be seen at the festival, or they were distributed by small companies that couldn't afford to change the on-screen text and re-encode the video. And the Roman-character text was in every case in the video encode, not in the subtitle stream that was another layer added on top.

And I know that making encodes is expensive: so what tends to happen is that the movie's international sales agent uses the encode made for Japanese cinemas and adds English subtitles on top and their logo to the start (and this is what shows at festivals), then if the movie gets licensed in an English-speaking country, the local distributor uses the subbed version from the sales agent and just adds their logo on to the start, then the rating board add their certificate before that. (That's why the start of a DCP of a movie goes certificate → local distributor's logo → sales agent's logo → original distributor's logo → the movie itself.)

What I am asking, after all that explanation, is: should the primary title for a country be what was on the title card when it was played in cinemas there, or should it be the title it is officially promoted under there?

A famous anglophone example is the film which on its title card in its country of origin of the UK is titled Withnail & I, but on posters and video packaging there has always been titled Withnail and I. That the bible says "we try to use the title as it is written in the original on-screen opening credits" and that the film's entry has Withnail & I as its primary title suggests that TMDB prefers the on-screen title of the full movie itself.

Then, by extension, should the original, Japanese title of a primarily Japanese production be what was on the title card when it was played in cinemas in Japan (even if that title card has only a non-Japanese title), or should it be the title it is officially promoted under (if that is different)? That this film has its original title set to and locked as "GHOST IN THE SHELL" and not "GHOST IN THE SHELL/攻殻機動隊" as it is promoted as suggests that you use the on-screen title. And I doubt whether there are any TMDB editors who saw it in Japan in 1995, so I can also conclude that the title being that way in a video release which has otherwise Japanese-character credits is considered reasonable enough evidence for presuming the title card on that video version to be the same as that on the prints made for the original, domestic cinema release.

So, if you are to apply the same rule that is currently used for GHOST IN THE SHELL/攻殻機動隊 to this movie, then the both the English and the original titles should be just MOTHER in all caps, going on the evidence that's available to me (short of importing a Japanese disc release, and I am not prepared to pay that amount just to prove the point).

@NotSafeforFun, let me start in the middle:

What I am asking, after all that explanation, is: should the primary title for a country be what was on the title card when it was played in cinemas there, or should it be the title it is officially promoted under there?

You can find our general rule(s) regarding all this in the Contribution Bible; it's the same link I took the quote from in my post before:

https://www.themoviedb.org/bible/movie#59f3b1749251414f2000000c

For example, under "Sources," it says:

"When the promotional material use slightly different titles (e.g. Twelve Monkeys vs 12 Monkeys), we try to use the title as it is written in the original on-screen opening credits."

The official title card usually tops everything else! In many cases, it's easy to decide - because it's the same as in the promotional material. In a few cases, like this one, it's difficult - getting proof is complicated. But when you ask for our rule(s): read the Contribution Bible! These are our rules.

Considering that the rest of the ending credits are in Japanese characters, I'm pretty sure that the title card that's on Netflix outside Japan is the same as that the movie had when played in cinemas in Japan.

I disagree with you on this. But to get definite proof, someone has to watch the original Japanese version and tell us about the title card (or make a screenshot). Until then, we have to follow the official sources and promotional material. As I wrote in my post before, the Japanese production company and the distributor use the long title, and so do all the official sources that I looked up yesterday. That's why, for now, the original title should be "MOTHER　マザー". Until proven otherwise.

It looks like the opening credits were changed specifically for Netflix (by the facts that not only are they in English but Netflix is mentioned in them, but Netflix weren't involved in its production nor its distribution in Japan; they just licensed it from GAGA for other many countries)

I'm not sure about that -> on the official youtube channel "Netflix Japan", there's a trailer for the movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxppgIhX600. I'm not sure in what capacity Netflix is involved, but it seems they also got a license in Japan. By the way, Netflix Japan only uses the short Japanese title "マザー" in the description of the trailer, but the trailer itself uses the long title card at 0:54 min. Which is very interesting...

Also, since I'm writing about trailers: Netflix Thailand also offers a localized trailer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROl7eZ54cOU. At 0:54 min in this trailer, you can see a title card in English and Thai that differs from the Japanese trailer. And I live in Germany -> when I look up the movie here, the trailer on Netflix offers a title card only in Japanese - without the English word "MOTHER" at all. Which means -> as far as we're looking at trailers, Netflix did create different title cards for different countries/markets. Did they do the same for the whole film? That's the question! I assume they did - you don't -> proof is needed.

I can't say anything about the other examples you brought up - I've never been to Japan, I don't speak any Japanese, this is not my expertise. Also, I can't say anything about the technical details of title card replacements - that's also not my expertise. Every film is unique and should be treated according to the rules in the Contribution Bible. When you find something here on TMDb that seems wrong to you, you can always write a report like you did in this case. And then someone looks into this specific case and decides according to the material that can be found to this specific case at this specific time.

So, if you are to apply the same rule that is currently used for GHOST IN THE SHELL/攻殻機動隊 to this movie, then the both the English and the original titles should be just MOTHER in all caps, going on the evidence that's available to me (short of importing a Japanese disc release, and I am not prepared to pay that amount just to prove the point).

I can't say anything about GHOST, but for this specific case, I interpret our order of rules differently. In my opinion, as long as we don't have definite proof regarding the Japanese release, we should use the long title from the promo material and official sources. Your technical expertise and your other examples might all be true and convincing for itself/themselves. But they are still not enough evidence that all this is true for this specific movie. That's how I would interpret our rules in this case.

I'm going to keep this report open for other contributors and moderators to see and think about it. That's it from me; based on the current evidence, that's how I would decide this issue.

I will just add for other moderators that Netflix making different trailers for their YouTube channels for different countries has nothing to do with whether or not they upload different versions of content for different countries on Netflix itself.

I've never known of Netflix changing the credits of content from the original-language version, with the possible exception of content for children that's been re-edited and only available dubbed (which I haven't watched any of on it); in my experience they have always added any English and other non–original-language credits onto the end. But I can see that the only way that can be proved undoubtably is get confirmation from an insider at Netflix.

Now that it's been brought up with the trailer on the Netflix Japan channel, it does look like this is a Netflix exclusive at least for home video in Japan as well, as I cannot find a disc or a VOD release of it on Amazon.jp (so importing a Japanese disc isn't even a possibility). That actually adds further strength to possibility that the version on Netflix, with them mentioned in the opening, is the same worldwide – and, if they acquired the rights before the cinema release, the same as that played in Japanese cinemas (as I write earlier, it's quite common for Japanese movies to have their opening credits in English, even in the original versions). They don't seem to have been involved in making it as I can see no "Netflix" or "ネットフリックス" in the end credits, and I can see GAGA mentioned as international sales agent and a Japanese TV network as an executive production company (which it wouldn't have if it had been made for Netflix exclusively, but they could have picked it up between its production and its full cinema release – which is something that has been happening quite a bit in 2020, for reasons that should be obvious as well as the ongoing shift from individual home video sales to subscription services).

I do have more important things to do than pursue this issue for this one movie, but I wrote all that I did because I'm trying to figure out what the rules are for TMDB in general. As I see it, one rule is currently being followed for GHOST IN THE SHELL and another is being followed for this movie, so for any other cases that are similar I don't know which way to go with them. 🥺