Have you seen this? I'm curious to know if it takes a logical approach (Descartes - "I think therefore I am" - if 'A' then 'B' logic) or if it relies on more abstract, spiritual or emotional points. The trailer seems to imply the latter. I hear a lot of poetic thoughts geared toward spirituality, meditation, nature and overall feelings, but nothing that digs deep into a real ontological discussion.

With difficult concepts like this, I prefer theses that begin by proposing an answer and then walking us through the proof. That way we know it's leading somewhere (whether or not we agree). But I've never seen a documentary on consciousness, existence or the afterlife that takes so bold a stance; they all seem to end with "we can't know for sure" or the worst "it's up to you" which makes me want to punch someone 😐

@rooprect said:

Have you seen this? I'm curious to know if it takes a logical approach (Descartes - "I think therefore I am" - if 'A' then 'B' logic) or if it relies on more abstract, spiritual or emotional points. The trailer seems to imply the latter. I hear a lot of poetic thoughts geared toward spirituality, meditation, nature and overall feelings, but nothing that digs deep into a real ontological discussion.

With difficult concepts like this, I prefer theses that begin by proposing an answer and then walking us through the proof. That way we know it's leading somewhere (whether or not we agree). But I've never seen a documentary on consciousness, existence or the afterlife that takes so bold a stance; they all seem to end with "we can't know for sure" or the worst "it's up to you" which makes me want to punch someone 😐

I haven't seen it (yet). 'Thinking' about this topic has been very addictive and all-consuming in the past, so for now I have joined the silent branch of AA (Awareness Anonymous).

I sometimes do watch light-hearted (SF) movies where consciousness - or its transference - is part of the story line.

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

Have you seen this? I'm curious to know if it takes a logical approach (Descartes - "I think therefore I am" - if 'A' then 'B' logic) or if it relies on more abstract, spiritual or emotional points. The trailer seems to imply the latter. I hear a lot of poetic thoughts geared toward spirituality, meditation, nature and overall feelings, but nothing that digs deep into a real ontological discussion.

With difficult concepts like this, I prefer theses that begin by proposing an answer and then walking us through the proof. That way we know it's leading somewhere (whether or not we agree). But I've never seen a documentary on consciousness, existence or the afterlife that takes so bold a stance; they all seem to end with "we can't know for sure" or the worst "it's up to you" which makes me want to punch someone 😐

I haven't seen it (yet). 'Thinking' about this topic has been very addictive and all-consuming in the past, so for now I have joined the silent branch of AA (Awareness Anonymous).

I sometimes do watch light-hearted (SF) movies where consciousness - or its transference - is part of the story line.

Honestly that's where the best ideas come from. It's probably because scifi writers are uninhibited, they can propose any kooky idea that occurs to them, whereas the scientific approach has to be more conservative, i.e. nothing to see here.

One of the more interesting ideas is presented in the 2000s remake of Battlestar Galactica. The whole show is rife with spiritual metaphors. When cylons die, their soul (machine consciousness) gets downloaded back to the main server, then recycled back to a newborn cylon. But what's interesting is they aren't sure if they have to be within a certain range of the server. If they're too far away they may get lost in limbo forever. Also there's a really cool episode where one of the cylons keeps killing herself to feel the euphoria of being downloaded/reborn, but she learns that there may be only a finite number of times it can be done before the soul is used up. It's a pretty deep show, the writers packed a lot between the lines.

@rooprect said:

Honestly that's where the best ideas come from. It's probably because scifi writers are uninhibited, they can propose any kooky idea that occurs to them, whereas the scientific approach has to be more conservative, i.e. nothing to see here.

One of the more interesting ideas is presented in the 2000s remake of Battlestar Galactica. The whole show is rife with spiritual metaphors. When cylons die, their soul (machine consciousness) gets downloaded back to the main server, then recycled back to a newborn cylon. But what's interesting is they aren't sure if they have to be within a certain range of the server. If they're too far away they may get lost in limbo forever. Also there's a really cool episode where one of the cylons keeps killing herself to feel the euphoria of being downloaded/reborn, but she learns that there may be only a finite number of times it can be done before the soul is used up. It's a pretty deep show, the writers packed a lot between the lines.

Science Fiction is certainly a genre where you can explore this extensively. And there we go with another interesting thought about the relationship between consciousness and soul. Does having consciousness mean that one also have a soul? Or are they separate and do only humans have a soul? Mary Shelley's novel presented us with Frankenstein's creature that appeared to have consciousness and a soul, but is not human. When the AI and androids created obtain consciousness, do they then also have a soul?

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

Honestly that's where the best ideas come from. It's probably because scifi writers are uninhibited, they can propose any kooky idea that occurs to them, whereas the scientific approach has to be more conservative, i.e. nothing to see here.

One of the more interesting ideas is presented in the 2000s remake of Battlestar Galactica. The whole show is rife with spiritual metaphors. When cylons die, their soul (machine consciousness) gets downloaded back to the main server, then recycled back to a newborn cylon. But what's interesting is they aren't sure if they have to be within a certain range of the server. If they're too far away they may get lost in limbo forever. Also there's a really cool episode where one of the cylons keeps killing herself to feel the euphoria of being downloaded/reborn, but she learns that there may be only a finite number of times it can be done before the soul is used up. It's a pretty deep show, the writers packed a lot between the lines.

Science Fiction is certainly a genre where you can explore this extensively. And there we go with another interesting thought about the relationship between consciousness and soul. Does having consciousness mean that one also have a soul? Or are they separate and do only humans have a soul? Mary Shelley's novel presented us with Frankenstein's creature that appeared to have consciousness and a soul, but is not human. When the AI and androids created obtain consciousness, do they then also have a soul?

I sorta define "consciousness" and "soul" as the same. The only difference to me is semantic: "consciousness" is a scientific word while "soul" is spiritual. I also include "sentience" and "volition" in the same bunch. They all describe some essence that gives a heap of matter the ability to think, observe or feel.

The problem is, we've never been able to infuse lifeless matter with consciousness. Zap a freshly dead body, you might be able to get involuntary muscle contractions but that's a long way from consciousness. And once you cut the power it returns to dead. That's the problem with machines & computers. Zap em with a sophisticated program and they can mimic intelligence, but it's not the real thing.

The same goes for scientists trying to recreate the spark of life. They tell us that life on earth was the inevitable result of organic compounds in the right environment, but scientists have been zapping organic compounds for centuries without any luck. Life is more than the sum of its parts.

Maybe on the day when scientists create a true lifeform from a petri dish of chemicals--even a single cell amoeba type thing--that's when I'll start getting worried that it's possible to generate consciousness. But I hope that day never comes.