second comment: Season 5 episode 4: NO WONDER WE HATE PASTOR TIM. HE IS A MARXIST PARADING AROUND AS A PREACHER. Paige"Marx? I thought he hated religion"

Timbo: "He did. But he was pretty great on class and poverty"

And then he goes on to read a passage "Labour is therefore not voluntary but coerced. It is therefore not the satisfaction of a need, it is merely a means to satisfy needs external to it" from Marx book.

Yes I watched The Man from Uncle. One of my sisters was in love with David Mc Callum. And he is in another hit show: NCIS. I must wait on the season to finish so I can watch Peaky Blinders on Netflix.

Ahh - Ilya Kuryakin - he had many female admirers including me !! I watched NCIS for years until too many of the original cast left. There was one scene in it - as usual I can't recall it exactly - but I think it was a woman - maybe Abbie who asked Gibbs what did Ducky look like when he was young - and he replied "Illya Kuryakin". I think that would have been lost on most of their audience!! That Marx quote - I am not very bright when it comes to political stuff - from what I understand of it he is saying that people don't choose to work - they have to in order to pay for what they need. Ye-sss - that is fairly obvious and could have been stated in a much simpler fashion. However - what about the people who are workaholics - who work because they want to - not because they need to? Or is their desire to work merely an external need also? Who can read such unnecessary verbiage.

Marx is full of crap (so is Paige for that matter). Is labor coerced? People work for various reasons, but most people work because it is how they obtain goods and services they want and need. Marx says labor meets external needs because the company owner benefits from it. But the employee also benefits, or else he wouldn't do it. He needs food, so he works. He needs shelter, so he works. Even if there were no money and he had to barter, he would have to work to barter for his needs. Marx is just full of crap.

Paige just told her dad "maybe I am just meant to be alone" and walks away moping. She is being passive aggressive in a low key way here. She is still whining about having to keep secrets and lie. She claims she can't lie, but that's a lie in itself. And she was keeping secrets before her parents told her she had to keep theirs. Now she whines that its not fair that she has to keep secrets, that it means she can never have a boyfriend because keeping secrets will prevent her being close to him, blah, blah, blah. Actually I think she is right: she is meant to be alone. It would be unfair for her to marry anyone because she would make their life miserable with all of her self-pity, her lying, her moaning and whining and moping. Even when she puts on a "happy face" it looks like she is really moping. She uses that multi-purpose facial expression for all of it.

You really don't like Paige do you ?! lol. She tells Elizabeth "I can't lie" to which Elizabeth responds "You don't have any trouble lying to me" - I thought hurrah - finally a believable response. Paige can't keep secrets? Her visit to Aunt Helen - her risking Henry's life taking a lift from a paedophile maybe killer - her plan to be baptized which she neatly set her parents up for - even buying herself a bra without her mothers knowledge - trivial - but still secretive. All teenage girls are secretive - it's a natural talent! I know - I was one once and I brought one up. Paige has absolutely no trouble in lying and keeping secrets. I wonder if the writers are all male! I thought she was "dating" Matthew Beaman - he's not much of an actor that boy - another character with one expression fits all. You could keep any secret you liked from him - I don't think he would even notice - he'd be too busy spilling the beans on his Dad. I don't get all this business of people must reveal everything about themselves to their partners or the relationship wont succeed. In my view it is more likely to fail - you can't live your life under a microscope - of never having a private thought or deed. Apart from anything else familiarity breeds contempt. Who wants a completely transparent predictable partner? I would be bored witless in a week - no - less than. I guess maybe I am not your normal concept of womanhood !! Anyway - (fed up with the Warden now!) I have to agree with Paige - she is meant to be alone - no man on God's green earth could tolerate that whinging, self-righteous - self-pitying - physog for longer than five minutes in a row without feeling an irresistible urge to push a grapefruit into the middle of it. !

I didn't take it that she really felt she had to be forthcoming about everything for a relationship to work. As we both noted, she isn't only capable but quite adept and experienced at lying and keeping secrets. I think she said that as a back handed way to complain about having to keep her parents' secret, and she really only wants to complain about that because it gives her a rationale for feeling sorry for herself and manipulating her parents with her moping and self-pity. There are some people who seem to be most comfortable being miserable and complaining that their life sucks. They usually blame it on others. They are looking for sympathy and can get it from some people.

I hate it when her parents apologize to her or otherwise enable her moping manipulations. There is a time NOT to be supportive of your kid, and with Paige that is most of the time. They should teach her that her self-pity is all the pity she will get.

Elizabeth is getting what she deserves. Philip, not so much.

I haven't seen the episode yet so I probably misunderstood you a bit - but let's face it - a secret is a secret - it doesn't really matter whose it is. My brother told me a personal thing many years ago and he asked me to keep it a secret and I kept it - I didn't analyse my feelings about it - he trusted me - I lived up to it. In any case - she didn't keep the bloody secret did she? I don't know why the Centre would want her now - she has proven that she is capable of the most momentous betrayal possible against their own best agents. To me - given the way she is going on - their best option would be to remove her to Russia - preferably Siberia - NOW. What annoys me most about Paige is her sense of entitlement to know every detail of her parents lives - no child has that right in my view - what business is it of theirs? At one point she thinks that Philip is having an affair and immediately puts herself in the middle of that - even if he was - again - it's not her business - it would be Elizabeths. I don't subscribe to the view that every member of a family has a right to be made aware of and consulted about everything. This business of "lets all sit down at the table and talk about where we are going for our holidays" is such a load of garbage - If mummy wants to go to Italy and daddy wants to go to Italy and the kids want to go to Scarborough - guess where they end up? Children aren't mature enough to make important choices and decisions - they don't know enough to be considered of equal value in a family unit. Paige doesn't quite get that - she thinks she is equal to her parents and they are answerable to her. It doesn't seem to work in reverse for her though. I will probably watch this episode with my finger on the ff button. It is getting to the stage where I really just wish somebody would shoot her. Elizabeth would be Aileen Wurnos if she wasn't Elizabeth - she is cold, hard, unmoved by killing an innocent 87 year old woman - and God knows how many other innocents. She justifies it by saying she wants to make the world a safer place - by smuggling out biological samples? rationalising it by blaming America for trying to develop them - that nasty Regan who kills kids again - at least he doesn't shoot them in the head when they get possibly infected by the same sample - her mind has been truly fixed on an implacable course - she sees no other viewpoint other than her own and never questions it. Philip - he kills when he has to - he takes no joy in it - he has a conscience about it - he doesn't want to sleep with a very young girl to get information - he loves being in America - he'd rather put on his cowboy boots and go dancing - but he loves Elizabeth and he is doing a job - he will support her no matter what. I think out of all of them he ends up suffering the most.

Season 5 episode 9; Gabriel visits Martha at her crappy flat in Moscow to tell her he called her parents and told them she is alright and being taken care of by people who respect her. Martha tells him she understands it all now, all of it. [Everything becomes more clear in retrospect, or if not more clear, you see things differently when you have more perspective.] Then she tells him he can go now.

Philip cares about Martha a little bit, but it doesn't change how terribly he screwed up her life. She didn't have to be an old maid, there were guys in the office who were interested in her. He wasn't her only suitor. Philip may have mixed feelings about the work he does, but his concern for Martha just rings very flat with me. I know they train agents to make people fall in love with them. My friend showed me that much. He had me try to get a Cuban lady to fall for me. I just met her one day and she did fall for me; she was ready to go to bed with me, thinking this was a serious thing. I left that day to go back to North Carolina and I never saw her again. I didn't do anything to hurt her, not really. I was just a guy she met who showed her attention and who she fell for. But I didn't like the fact that it was an experiment. I had to let myself feel something for her, to let it get real. It felt too shitty not to. I am not a good liar. I have told lies of course, everyone has and does from time to time. But it is usually small stuff, to keep things private that are personal, or to protect someone else, that sort of thing. But what those agents do, it doesn't come naturally to me. Well it isn't natural to anyone I guess, but I mean it would not be easy for me. In this story, I identify with Philip much more so than any of the other Soviet spies. But I couldn't do what he does.

second comment:

You said "What annoys me most about Paige is her sense of entitlement to know every detail of her parents lives..."

BINGO. You're so right. And Elizabeth and Philip have told her that they would be honest with her, but that there are some things they simply cannot share with her. Great. But when Paige goes back to demanding to know everything, they capitulate. I hate it. They are silent for a moment, they look down, then they look at each other, one of them nods, and then they tell her stuff she has no business knowing. This has happened a few times now. Paige looks at them with her beady little eyes and complains that they are lying to her, when in fact they are being honest with her by telling her they can't share everything with her. Yeah, you and I feel the same way about Paige. Elizabeth insisted on telling Paige; she opened this whole can of worms and gave Paige the power to destroy them both. They should tell her "Guess what Paige. You're going on an exchange student trip. You're going to learn so many new and interesting things." And then ship her off to the Soviet Union to her new home in a mental institution. Maybe Pavlov is still around and can give her an electric shock whenever she acts entitled.

Also, you nailed it with Elizabeth.

My goodness, you have led an interesting life and have intriguing friends ! I think everyone tells lies of one kind or another - I don't think society could function if everyone told the truth. I am up to the episode where Mischa is trying to reach Philip in America - I only have one question - why? What a waste of time - it meant nothing and went nowhere. I am also fed up with the Oleg situation - I mean I like Oleg but it just distracts from the major storyline. Paige is learning self defence - with a face like a slapped butt - does she ever smile - oops no I am wrong - she was smiling at that squirmy baby. I mean that quite literally - my niece handed me her son when he was a baby and he was so strong and squirmy that I nearly dropped him. And Paige is sleeping in a cupboard? Oh well - it's back to the Tuan situation now - he is headed for trouble I think - with his cocky attitude and disregard for agents who have been in the field longer than he has been alive. I still enjoy it - particularly when we are able to analyse it and question it and comment on it - but there is a lot of stuff that could have been left out and wouldn't have been missed.

There are certain kinds of jobs that are not advertised. People are recruited by people they know who are in the business. I think I was considered for one of those jobs. My friend thought I would be good at it, said I was very smart and could guess things correctly. He said I wouldn't know what I could do, would think I couldn't but would find out I could when in the situation. That thing with the Cuban lady was the only time I did that. I don't want you thinking bad about me. I know I would be good at some things, but like he told me, he realized I would be very bothered by innocent people getting hurt, which might happen no matter how well something was planned. I suppose I could have done other things which didn't involve certain aspects. I miss my friend. He died a few years ago.

Tuan is going to screw things up. He is too much like Elizabeth, perhaps more cold hearted than she is. Tuan has bought into that whole "leftists will save the world" crap. Those people use that idea to justify all the evil they do. He is very cocky and thinks he knows better than others. You have him pegged. Oleg will come back into the story later on. He will come back to America. I will let you see that for yourself.

So I guess the Jennings have gone to Kansas now? I think that happened around the time his son by Irina tried to find him. Gabriel shut that down of course.

Tell me when you get to the part where they decide to get rid of Pastor Tim. There is an interesting tie in with real life on that score. The show doesn't exactly tell it right. The truth is more interesting.

I haven't come to the part about getting rid of Pastor Tim - and I can't recall it either (no surprise there!) ooh - something to look forward to. I am getting fed up with Elizabeth's standard response of "We have our problems but" - When Paige (reading Marx) asks her "is everybody equal then?" - or when she is faced with any question or criticism of Russia that she cannot justify - out it comes . Philip has just found out from Gabriel that his father was a prison guard - but again no real detail as to whether he was kind or cruel. I can't see the point of these half-baked revelations - unless it has some relevance to the plot why include it? Elizabeth has just killed a scientist in a wheat research centre - one who was trying to make a disease resistant strain in order to end hunger. The way she just assumes the absolute worst with no proof whatsoever is mind-boggling. Oh - America has got a wheat research facility - they must be planning to contaminate our wheat supplies and kill millions of people. There's paranoia and then there's Elizabeth - fifty times worse. I have read nothing in our conversations that reflect badly on you. You seem highly intelligent and analytical - you are not ruthless and you have a conscience and you don't like to manipulate people. I think you would make a good analyst in the F.B.I. I am sorry about your friend.

My take on Philip finding out his father was a prison guard is, they showed that to add to Philip's disillusionment and brooding mood. It made him question if Gabriel had held the information back from him, shaking his trust, making him more dissatisfied in general. I don't know if he felt great about Gabriel's answer that he didn't think it was his place to tell him that his dad was a prison guard, not a lumberjack. Philip is getting burned out. The killing of that innocent man in the research facility shook him also. Yes, Elizabeth glosses over all the negative stuff about communism, her killing ways, her country's shortcomings. She seems to glorify poverty and is morally outraged over the wealth and high standard of living in the US. How terrible that her children should suffer through living in the US. But that is one of the sacrifices Elizabeth makes for her country. Thankfully Henry's brilliance will get him a scholarship to a good school, a boarding school. Then he can get away from his illegal family. That is the real shame of this story, that Henry will eventually have to find out his parents were KGB agents. They never showed us that so we have to imagine it. Somehow he turned out to be a great kid. I like to imagine Stan Beeman took a big role in helping him finish school and maybe Henry eventually joined the FBI, maybe working in counterintelligence. That would be awesome.

second comment: I had to tell you about this. You will see it in the 6th season. I won't tell you much, just this. Claudia tells Elizabeth that a couple has defected. The husband is on the Soviet hockey team. She says he has to be "dealt with" because he would go into the American propaganda machine. "Picture him in Time magazine talking about how terrible we are".

Does that hit you the way it hits me? She is proving the point. 'How dare he say we are bad people? Kill him.' And she said it with that righteous indignation they always display. They are morally superior to us, so they are justified in killing anyone who speaks ill of them.

This seems to be a recurring theme in the series - murder is always their go to solution. Kill a guy because they automatically assume he will tell the world how terrible they are - and this proves how wrong he is? All the dreadful things they have done - sometimes to innocent civilians - and it is all just collateral damage to Elizabeth - not so to Philip. They are both Russian - they have to know the conditions their countrymen live under - the poverty of the masses - the repression of free speech and ideas - his own son was threatened with prison because he criticised the way the Afghan war was being fought - the lack of food on supermarket shelves - the poor housing unless you are rich - the elitist rule. Arrest and imprisonment without trial - horrendous prison conditions. How can they be proud of that? How can they feel morally superior - as if all that is a badge of honour rather than failure to run a country properly. I guess the only thing that works properly in Russia is brain-washing. As you so rightly say - I feel sorry for Henry - he is always in the background - they never seem to know where he is or what he is doing. He is bright and academically successful - he has the potential to go far - and yet they always think the worst of him and/or ignore him. He is about fourteen now I think, still a dangerous age for a child to become parentless and put into care - and yet they have made no arrangements for either of the children should they be killed, captured, or have to run. All of which are distinct possibilities. They seem bewildered by what they should do about them - this should have been worked out when she first gave birth. It would seem sensible if they had used a ruse to teach the children Russian when they were very young with some excuse of wanting to visit Russia one day. Elizabeth and Philip would pretend to be learning of course. Instead they opt for transplanting two American teenagers into a country they have been in a cold war with for years - whose way of life is completely alien to them and whose language they do not speak. It's absurd. Yes - it would be nice but unlikely for Stan to "adopt" Henry - and I doubt if Paige could take time out from her self pity to look after him - which would be the most suitable solution as she is probably around 18 now - she could of course take him to Argentina where Pastor Tim would look after them both and she could carry on moaning forever. I am wondering about Stan's new girlfriend - is she or isn't she a Russian agent? I would guess yes. It would be nice if there was a one off wrap up series to tell us what ultimately happened to all of them !!