I remember that great scene with Tuvok. But I always thought Tuvok's dread of dancing was a bit short sighted of the Voyager writers. As Spock proved in "The Way to Eden", it's clear that Vulcans are trained in music--which makes sense since many of the ancient Greek philosophers studied music as both a science and a spiritual discipline. Spock even sings (though under the influence 😬) in "Plato's Stepchildren". So if the Voyager writers had figured out the connection, they would have continued to depict Vulcans as being advanced in music and its conjoined art, dance.

But remember, Spock was half-human. Tuvok was not.

@Knixon said:

But remember, Spock was half-human. Tuvok was not.

That’s irrelevant.

As I said, in the real world, music was approached as a logical, scientific discipline by the ancient Greeks. Pythagoras developed the 12 tone Pythagorean scale based on mathematics, as he also developed the Pythagorean theorem in geometry. The original TOS writers were intelligent enough to project that Vulcans would be like ancient Greek mathematicians.

Rewatch “The Way to Eden” and you’ll see Spock shows no emotion when jamming with the gleeful space hippies—one of the nuanced & brilliant points of the original writers showing that music is neither purely emotional nor purely logical. Each side appreciates its half. Both can come together in a jam session.

In contrast Tuvok was just close-minded. The Voyager writers missed the mark on that.

@rooprect said:

@Knixon said:

But remember, Spock was half-human. Tuvok was not.

That’s irrelevant.

As I said, in the real world, music was approached as a logical, scientific discipline by the ancient Greeks. Pythagoras developed the 12 tone Pythagorean scale based on mathematics, as he also developed the Pythagorean theorem in geometry. The original TOS writers were intelligent enough to project that Vulcans would be like ancient Greek mathematicians.

Rewatch “The Way to Eden” and you’ll see Spock shows no emotion when jamming with the gleeful space hippies—one of the nuanced & brilliant points of the original writers showing that music is neither purely emotional nor purely logical. Each side appreciates its half. Both can come together in a jam session.

In contrast Tuvok was just close-minded. The Voyager writers missed the mark on that.

Based on what? When did we ever see a full-blooded Vulcan play music, etc?

(I mean on the show/in the movies. What someone may have put in some books is what is irrelevant.)

Spock can never stand as The Example in terms of What Vulcans Are Like.

@Knixon said:

@rooprect said:

@Knixon said:

But remember, Spock was half-human. Tuvok was not.

That’s irrelevant.

As I said, in the real world, music was approached as a logical, scientific discipline by the ancient Greeks. Pythagoras developed the 12 tone Pythagorean scale based on mathematics, as he also developed the Pythagorean theorem in geometry. The original TOS writers were intelligent enough to project that Vulcans would be like ancient Greek mathematicians.

Rewatch “The Way to Eden” and you’ll see Spock shows no emotion when jamming with the gleeful space hippies—one of the nuanced & brilliant points of the original writers showing that music is neither purely emotional nor purely logical. Each side appreciates its half. Both can come together in a jam session.

In contrast Tuvok was just close-minded. The Voyager writers missed the mark on that.

Based on what? When did we ever see a full-blooded Vulcan play music, etc?

(I mean on the show/in the movies. What someone may have put in some books is what is irrelevant.)

Spock can never stand as The Example in terms of What Vulcans Are Like.

For the last time, Knixon... irrelevant. If you're incapable of grasping my point about music being the intersection of mathematics and emotion, well good luck with that.

by rooprest:

As Spock proved in "The Way to Eden", it's clear that Vulcans are trained in music which makes sense since many of the ancient Greek philosophers studied music as both a science and a spiritual discipline.

Vulcans who attend the Vulcan Science Academy study music, seeing musical notes are a universal language ( like we saw in the Encounter of the Third Kind)

I'm sure many Vulcan study music because of its soothing effects; it would be a great help when meditating.

That said, I don't see how one can assert that Vulcans are trained in music. It is more likely a free choice.

...................................................

Rewatch “The Way to Eden” and you’ll see Spock shows no emotion when jamming with the gleeful space hippies—one of the nuanced & brilliant points of the original writers showing that music is neither purely emotional nor purely logical. Each side appreciates its half. Both can come together in a jam session

Spock exhibits his usual deadpan face. In a dire situation, he has that deadpan face, too. He is a Vulcan, and he keeps his emotions hidden. When it comes to being a Vulcan, especially when among Humans, Spock has always acted more Vulcan than full full-blooded Vulcan. The girl, is not overly emotional; she is composed. And Spock is concentrating on listening and following the rhythm of the song and making up the notes as he goes.

I don't see Spock's usual dead pan face as being a point in favour of your assumption: Vulcans are trained in music.

@sunshine62 said:

I'm sure many Vulcan study music because of its soothing effects; it would be a great help when meditating.

That said, I don't see how one can assert that Vulcans are trained in music. It is more likely a free choice.

Logic would dictate that if a discipline is available for study, then the quest for knowledge would necessitate and obligate its study.

Rewatch Star Trek IV where Spock takes the Kolinahr test. All-comprehensive, everything from philosophy to thermodynamics to literature (and we can assume if the scene had gone longer there would be arts, music and, yes, dance); no field of study is by "choice" as an evolved Vulcan is required to understand it all.

Again back to the logic of the ancient Greeks which everyone is ignoring here and yet provides the template for much of Vulcan characterization, Plato argued in The Republic that an evolved soul (in this case worthy of leading, as his context was politics) must be well versed in every available realm of knowledge. Plato argued that leaders specifically need to know music. Why are you guys resisting logic so hard to defend a scene in TNG which isn't even the forum we're on?

QED: Vulcans must learn all knowledge that is available.

rooprest said:

Why are you guys resisting logic so hard to defend a scene in TNG which isn't even the forum we're on?

I'm just trying to analyse Spock's behaviour . I have no clue what scene you are referring to in TNG.

Vulcans must learn all knowledge that is available

You make it sound as if its forced upon them.

So are you saying every Vulcan must attend the Vulcan Science Academy. Unlikely.

I have a problem with must learn. Vulcans think highly of logic , so knowledge is important to them, they find pride ( yes an emotion) in all the knowledge they accumulate.

That said, you think Spock played his harp just for academic interest

I think Spock got a kick out of playing his sharp with the girl.

@sunshine62 said:

Vulcans must learn all knowledge that is available

You make it sound as if its forced upon them.

It absolutely is IF they want to attain Kolinahr.

The "free choice" is whether to pursue Kolinahr. I'm sure there are Vulcan washouts and losers just like in any society. But Spock is clearly not that.

This isn't a matter of Vulcan Space Academy, it's a matter Kolinahr, or the Vulcan equivalent of enlightenment.

Also it just occurred to me (please don't take this the wrong way as it's not meant as any sort of dig but to shed light on why I may be encountering so much resistance from you guys) is that you guys haven't studied music, and/or acoustical physics as a theoretical science. Music, or the study of frequencies, harmonics, transients and rhythms, is absolutely a mathematical discipline. Where people get caught up is that it has such a demonstrably emotional effect on people, so most laypersons assume music is an emotional thing. It is, but students of music theory and physics realize that it's as scientific as calculus.

With that, I'll back out of this thread.

by rooprect :

The "free choice" is whether to pursue Kolinahr. I'm sure there are Vulcan washouts and losers just like in any society. But Spock is clearly not that

Sarek never pursued Kolinahr and he is no washout or loser. Very few pursue Kolinahr.

Spock pursued it because he wanted to rid himself of his Human heritage. He wanted to prove he could be even more Vulcan than a fully blooded Vulcan. Why?

Amanda in Journey to Babel said, quote :

When you were five years old and came home stiff-lipped, anguished, because the other boys tormented you saying that you weren't really Vulcan. I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part of you was crying and I cried, too

Also as an adult Spock did believe that the logic way was the better way. Anyways, During the ritual, Spock senses a powerful telepathic signal from V'ger and his thought go to Kirk. He knows Kirk will need him in facing this new potential threat.

I like how you explained what music represents to Vulcans. I can see why they would study it. I just don't think they approach his art, discipline only with academic interest, with a clinical eye.

Spock plays the harp because it is soothing, and he finds pleasure in playing it.

But do people who's former username is Lansing Fan dance?