@Invidia said:

[@chrisjdel

Actually I believe it said 0.72 hours until critical failure when he checked. Less than an hour. Bernard was administering a temporary remedy to buy time, replacing the fluid that's been leaking from his ear. But three weeks pass between then and the beach. So he must've fixed the problem, or somebody else did. The real question is whether he suffered permanent damage to his brain ... or is now part of the hosts' escape plan and playing his part as the traumatized employee. I tend to assume the latter. They've got devices that will detect if someone is a host or a human. But it's possible to hack into a host's code and get them to read as human, they did that in season 1. The fact that Bernard wasn't executed like the other hosts on the beach means he's been "immunized" too.

What's also interesting is how the THROAT of the other ROBOT LEAKS a RED BLOOD looking fluid after THE MAN in BLACK slits it open with a knife.

So why wouldn't BERN also BLEED RED FLUID from his EAR???

Was BERN injured when he tried to stop them from attacking the Ranch hand character in the BARN setting?

Because Charlotte also says something to him like it wasn't necessary to risk his life for the MERCHANDIZE???

With his hand SHAKING and his hiding from Charlotte how something's wrong with him, the part about his FAKING IT just doesn't make sense. Why HIDE it from her if he's only pretending to be traumatized???

No, I'm talking about after Bernard washes up on the beach. Then he's pretending to be traumatized in order to lead the company thugs to that lake so they can find the supposed dead hosts (I don't think those are really them). The blood they have is for show, strictly for the sake of realism, so they bleed like humans when they're shot in the park. That fluid coming out of Bernard's ear is either hydraulic or some kind of cushion for the brain module, would be my guess. Whatever its function unlike the blood the hosts actually need it. Bernard will have to seal the breach in the reservoir and then top himself back off in order to fix the problem. Since he's still around three weeks later we can assume it got fixed at some point. His little injection will only restore his functionality for now and buy him time.

@Invidia said:

The MEMORY of his PAST LIFE had come back to him again the same way as MAEVE'S memory of her daughter also came back to her again.

http://westworld.wikia.com/wiki/Peter_Abernathy

While working one day on the ranch, Peter discovers a photograph buried in the ground next to a paddock. He takes it home with him and obsessively wonders about where the picture was taken. He shows it to his daughter, but she says she doesn't see anything. The next morning, Dolores finds that her father has been awake all night looking at the photograph. He tells her that he had a question that he's not supposed to ask which gave him an answer that he's not supposed to know. He tells her that she should leave and that all of the devils from hell are with them there. He whispers something into Dolores' ear. Dolores later reports that he whispered, "These violent delights have violent ends". This is one of Friar Lawrence's lines from Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet.[1]

All of the hosts that were recently upgraded (this upgrade had the reverie code) are recalled following the malfunction of the host named Walter. Dr. Robert Ford interviews Abernathy in order to find out why Abernathy has "breached" and also why he was able to see the photograph of the woman in the city. (In a subsequent episode, Elsie reveals that a breach is when hosts have memory recall of previous builds.) This is aberrant host behavior, or in the jargon of Delos Destinations it is an "aberrancy". Abernathy tells Ford that he must warn Dolores, and that she's "got to get out". Abernathy accesses fragments of his prior build as "The Professor", the leader of a cannibalistic cult, even when Ford tells him to access his current build. Theresa Cullen says that the policy for hosts that "breach" is that they have to be "put down". This host (credited in the show as "Old Peter Abernathy"), along with the Walter host, is lobotomized, decommissioned, and put in Cold Storage.

As you see, PETER recalls his PREVIOUS life as both a PROFESSOR and as a Leader of a CANNIBALISTIC CULT.

And now CHAROLOTTE'S also DOWNLOADED lots of other INFO into him because she also had plans to SMUGGLE him out of the PARK with it.

But why wouldn't she also know about the EXPLODING SPINE issue???

Charlotte certainly knows about the explosive charges. Being a member of the board, I'm sure her access code can authorize a charge to disarm.

The reverie update allowed information supposedly erased to be accessed again. In some cases this simply caused them to seize up, like the sheriff, or behave erratically - like that guy in town with the milk, whatever his name was. In Peter Abernathy's case it brought him to the brink of self-awareness for a time. Then he started to malfunction, and eventually slipped back into a former personality, the Shakespeare quoting cannibal cult leader. He didn't ever meet William's wife though. We see the moment later in the season when young William dropped that picture in the park. It ended up buried in the dirt to be found decades later by Abernathy. And thanks to the update, it didn't "look like nothing" to him. He could see what was in the picture instead of ignoring it like he was supposed to.

@chrisjdel said:

Actually I believe it said 0.72 hours until critical failure when he checked. Less than an hour. Bernard was administering a temporary remedy to buy time, replacing the fluid that's been leaking from his ear. But three weeks pass between then and the beach. So he must've fixed the problem, or somebody else did. The real question is whether he suffered permanent damage to his brain ... or is now part of the hosts' escape plan and playing his part as the traumatized employee. I tend to assume the latter. They've got devices that will detect if someone is a host or a human. But it's possible to hack into a host's code and get them to read as human, they did that in season 1. The fact that Bernard wasn't executed like the other hosts on the beach means he's been "immunized" too.

Peter Abernathy (Dolores' father) didn't know William's wife! And he wasn't reliving a memory. The hosts are not supposed to be able to see certain things, there are internal safeguards in place to prevent it. But instead of the picture not looking like anything to him - which was the programmed response - he saw the modern city and wondered where the hell it was taken. He was one of those on the verge of consciousness that Bernard told Maeve "went insane". Maybe if someone had been there to help him through his little crisis of reality and explain what was happening, he wouldn't have started having seizures. Needless to say that's not what the company wants. Roll them back, and if for some reason you can't then decommission them.

Thank you for clearing up fallacies and explaining what actually is happening.

@movie_nazi said:

I'm also a little lost as to how the affair between Abernathy and MiB wife is implicated. I have to go back and watch again ....

Your'e not lost because it wasn't.

Have you really forgotten how she likes to pull all kinds of nonsensical 8 page long theories out her ?

@movie_nazi wrote:

Well, he most definitely married but as to whether he married Logan's sister is another thing altogether. I do remember MiB mentioning his wife in the real world.

Certainly, yes.

I also do not believe it could have been Logan's sister after he puts him a horse buck naked and sends the horse into the desert. I mean, its possible they patch things up after that but highly unlikely.

That's exactly what I was wondering about: Would Logan have been fine with that marriage after what William did to him in the park? On the other hand, Logan is also a creep and he might have seen advantages of the cruelty that William showed in the park? Like, as a business man you have to be that cruel to be successful. All theory, I hope we'll get some answers.

What's also boggling my mind -> in the preview for the next episodes, there's a scene in which we see William (the young William, played by Jimmi Simpson) talking to Dolores in a very dark room:

https://youtu.be/UrrdxjzdcJo?t=33s

It almost looks like this takes place in the real, human world -> but that can't be true, can it? Did the young William bring Dolores to the real world, out of the park, in his/her past? Possible, but how much is that likely? No matter the actual time, this is definitely a scene when William and Dolores met that we don't know anything about yet -> and I can't wait to find out when/where that happened!

I have to go back and watch again which I really shoulda have done before this season darn it! They gave us PLENTY of time.

Indeed! Shame on you!

@Invidia wrote:

http://westworld.wikia.com/wiki/Guest_Photograph
http://westworld.wikia.com/wiki/Juliet

Thanks for both links, that's helpful.

However, there's no evidence given on the second wikia page for the first part of the sentence that you quote: "Juliet was William's wife". As of now, this is mere speculation written into fact by the author of this wikia article, in my opinion.

And both links do not iterate on a personal connection between the woman in the photo and Peter.

To a certain point in the story Logan seemed okay with what William did. In a way he actually had more respect for him than before. But after he was dragged around on a leash for a few days, and stripped naked, at that point he would certainly have told his dad to fire William and the marriage wouldn't have happened.

Logan died in the park. They didn't show it happen, but he never made it out alive. That's how William came to be the heir to the throne of Delos instead of the founder's son. He married Logan's sister - because no one knew what he'd done. Remember that back in those days the park surveillance system wasn't nearly as sophisticated as it is in the present time frame. Near the edge of the park they weren't able to watch from the control room while Logan was sent galloping off into the wilderness. Otherwise he would've been recovered before he died. From dehydration, most likely.

Apparently Juliet (Logan's sister) became afraid of her husband at some point and eventually killed herself. It sounds a lot like she grew to suspect many years later that her brother's accident hadn't been an accident after all. It could've been something as simple as William's utter ruthlessness in his business dealings that made it all click for her. Or his continued obsession with visiting the park. Somehow I picture her not approving of the type of entertainment it offers. How could she share a bed with a man she believed had murdered her brother in cold blood to take his company from him? And yet her entire family fortune may have passed to William when her father died, if the old man came to think of him as the second son he never had. So if Juliet left him she'd have nothing. Seems that became too much for her to take anymore. All of which would explain why William's daughter has nothing to do with him and called him a monster.

@Invidia wrote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/7iobnv/peter_abernathy_whats_his_deal/

Peter Abernathy could see past the fiction of his world because he recognized Juliette. She was a visitor to the park, per Logan's statement.

In other words, we also HEARD LOGAN telling WILLIAM his sister had visited the PARK.

And the VIOLENT DELIGHTS HAVE VIOLENT ENDS QUOTE is also from ROMEO and JULIET.

Okay, now I think I finally grasp what you refer to -> but I still think it's very speculative and I don't really buy into this reddit theory!

Let me paraphrase:

1. The woman in the photo, her name is Juliet, is Logan's sister and William's fiancée (again, she's presumably his wife, but it could be that William actually married a different woman after his first journey and dumped Juliet or was dumped by her - we as viewers don't know for sure, yet).
   
2. The argument of this theory is that while Juliet was visiting the park before, she met Peter Abernathy, maybe in his old role as a professor who knows Shakespeare very well, and she told him that her name is Juliet.
   
3. When Peter Abernathy finds the photo of her 30+ years later, he remembers Juliet's face and her name from her visit to the park back then.
   
4. This memory of her and the memory of her name trigger in him something to "go insane" and he whispers a verse from Shakespeare's "Romeo & Juliet" into Dolores' ear.
   

So, the assumed connection between Peter Abernathy and the woman in the photo is revealed to us viewers through the name -> Juliet. That's the corner stone of this theory - and I think it's flawed and far-fetched. Not implausible, but in my opinion not much likely. The main difference of this theory to the one that @chrisjdel mentioned above and that I think is much more plausible: We think that the type of photo (it's a modern, different world) triggered the reaction in Peter - not the memory of this specific person named Juliet. It's also in accordance to what Maeve experiences when she draws those men with overalls that are not from his world. It has yet to be revealed which of these theories is true - we can't be sure about it now, I think. However, I tend to think it has nothing to do with Juliet, the specific person and her name.

And another remark to this: You went a few steps further than this theory in your earlier posts! You wrote as a "logical conclusion":

So wouldn't the LOGICAL CONCLUSION be the WOMAN in that PHOTO who falls in love with PETER and wanted to SMUGGLE him out of the PARK must have also been the woman who was engaged to WILL???

Which means you concluded that Juliet fell in love with Peter Abernathy during/after her visit and intended to rescue him somehow because she loved him. That's way beyond the reddit theory - you claimed that they had a personal relationship. I don't see any hints to that at all in the show, and I don't see this mentioned in the reddit theory -> and it doesn't make any sense to me at all.

So apparently we KNOW for sure that the woman in the PHOTO is JULIET, LOGAN'S SISTER who marries WILLIAM.

Who was about to marry William after his first journey! I explained before that the wedding might have been cancelled due to what happened in the park on William's first journey.

It just makes the most sense that WILLIAM's got a PHOTO of the woman he's engaged to with him.

I didn't disagree with that, I think nobody in this thread did disagree with that. I wrote before that "I'm pretty sure that the woman in the photo is Logan's sister, the woman that William was engaged to and was about to marry at the time of their first journey." My question was: Is the wife that the MiB speaks about in retrospect Juliet (the woman in the photo) or another woman (we don't know anything about)? And the bigger, general question is: Did Peter know Juliet, and if he did, did he remember her via the photo (see above)?

And we're also not suppose to make a connection between the QUOTE from a play about a JULIET that PETER uses with the other JULIET that we see in the PHOTO that he finds that drives him INSANE enough to threaten both FORD and BERN with his DIRTY MECHANICAL HAND???

As I wrote above, nice theory, but I think making this connection is a bit far-fetched.

It's a good thing the rest of you never took classes from my LIT PROFESSORS.

I loved my lit professors! They taught me that art is always ambigous and open to interpretation ...

@chrisjdel wrote:

Logan died in the park. They didn't show it happen, but he never made it out alive. That's how William came to be the heir to the throne of Delos instead of the founder's son. He married Logan's sister - because no one knew what he'd done. Remember that back in those days the park surveillance system wasn't nearly as sophisticated as it is in the present time frame. Near the edge of the park they weren't able to watch from the control room while Logan was sent galloping off into the wilderness. Otherwise he would've been recovered before he died. From dehydration, most likely.

That's a really nice theory, it would explain a lot! However, if that's Ben Barnes in the preview for the next episodes, this seems to mean that Logan did not die in the park. I'm not sure it is Ben Barnes, though. And I'm also not sure in which time this scene will play, eventually?

Somehow I picture her not approving of the type of entertainment it offers.

On the other hand, she visited the park herself before William, and if what Logan says about her is true, she used the male hosts for her own pleasure during her visit. Logan isn't a very trustworthy person in general -> so I have my doubts about it. Honestly, I wouldn't want to be in Juliet's mind, asking myself what William did on his journey - it's a very intriguing dilemma! I hope we'll get some answers to this during season 2!

Oh I'm sure Juliet did visit the park at least once or twice, William being so enthusiastic about it and all. But I doubt she had any contact with Peter Abernathy. If he even existed at the time, he would've been playing that creepy cult leader with the blood of his victims all over his face. Assuming she was in the mood to bang a host it would've been just about anyone else but him.

If Ben Barnes is in the next episode it could still be a flashback. Seems we're going to be following William around on a new quest this season, so I'm sure even more of his backstory will be filled in. The events after his first visit to the park will probably be shown. Along with the full story of his marriage and how he inherited the company. I expect that part to be something along the lines of what I was saying, but who knows? I love a show with twists and turns I didn't see coming so it wouldn't disappoint me to be wrong.

Couldn't the suffering be watching his daughter get raped and tortured (Delores) over and over again? Remember that when Peter freaks out he keeps saying, "I Have to warn her! I have to protect her!" . So perhaps this is what triggered his consciousness.

Also are you trying to say that Juliet falls in love with Peter much later? I don't mean to sound ageist but it seems unlikely a young beautiful girl would fall in love with a middle-aged looking robot. But then again, do we see Peter in the park in the early time line (Billy boy)?

@Invidia said:

Isn't Peter killed immediately and before whoever shows up at the ranch attacks DOLORES???

So he also wouldn't see that happening to her if he's killed first by trying to protect her.

In that particular scenario that we see YES but you have to remember there are many, many scenarios that play out in the park any of which or most of which could have involved watching Delores get hurt.

But he'd still also know that she's in danger of being attacked when whoever is about to ABUSE her shows up.

As for the TIME ISSUE ...

Some people think Clementine is Maeve's young daughter. So if that's the case, apparently ROBOTS can also age.

But Dolores doesn't seem to have aged though. And BERN doesn't seem to have aged either.

And neither did the SNAKE GIRL or the REPLICATED family of FORD.

So perhaps that's also because only the FIRST MODELS they manufactured don't age???

Whereas the one's made later on do age???

What makes you think they age?

But also keep in mind how a 27 year old also married DAVID LYNCH when he was in his mid 60's, and there's also been several other cases where younger females marry males old enough to be their fathers or GRANDFATHERS.

So while it's "unlikely" JULIET would fall for a middle aged man, it's also not UNHEARD of for that kind of a thing to happen.

In the previews it also looks like her father looks like PETER.

And they also say males tend to fall for females that look like or otherwise remind them of or resemble their mothers in some way and females tend to fall for males who remind them of their fathers in some way.

So if Peter looks like her father that might also explain the reason why she might fall for him???

Maybe he's also a much nicer man than her father which would also make him attractive for her???

So maybe it would also be like having the kind of a KIND father that she always wanted to have but never had before when she meets Peter???

You are still discounting the fact that we have NOTHING that supports this theory that they fell in love. You are theorizing and thats fine but it would work better with something that points towards this scenario.

I am rewatching seaon one now so I will let you know if I see anything that supports this theory.

There's no indication that hosts age. In fact, it's implied more than once that they're essentially immortal. At least in the sense of being free from aging or disease. They're not indestructible. So Maeve's daughter would stay a little girl indefinitely; of course, we've also seen the brain modules can be pulled out so you could prepare a set of progressively older bodies and then switch from one to the next so a child host could grow up just like a human.

I don't get all the talk about a connection between Peter Abernathy and William's wife Juliet. He found her picture in the dirt. As far as I can tell that's the only link between them. And the importance of that picture was that Abernathy didn't blank out the background and ignore it, not that he recognized the woman.

We know why Peter Abernathy eventually had a mental breakdown after looking at the picture. He lived in a recreation of a 19th century world and was sitting there looking at a picture taken in a 21st century city. Big towers, cars, electric lights, and so forth. A place unlike anything he's ever seen and for which he has no context. Who knows? If someone had been there and explained what it meant to him, it still would've been a whole lot to process but he might not have "crashed" the way he did.

And I was talking about child hosts not necessarily being stuck as children indefinitely. Once they gain consciousness they need to grow up like a normal kid, and you could do that by running off a slightly older body every year and switching their brain module from the old body to the new one. They're not going to grow naturally. You have to make it happen artificially. The hosts are emerging as a new race, that looks to be the main focus of season 2 and they'll have to figure out basic questions of what their existence will be. How they'll live as a people - as opposed to a theme park exhibit.

@Invidia said:

You are still discounting the fact that we have NOTHING that supports this theory that they fell in love. You are theorizing and thats fine but it would work better with something that points towards this scenario. I am rewatching season one now so I will let you know if I see anything that supports this theory.

Well there's the POSSIBILITY that something like that MIGHT have happened due to the way JULIET is her name and PETER also uses the QUOTE from ROMEO and JULIET as a way to SEEK REVENGE upon FORD and BERN for something that he thinks they've done to him.

They theory about the name Juliet and Abernathy playing a professor who quoted Shakespere and previously meeting her makes sense that this is the reason he flips out when he sees the picture. It is enough to send his mind reeling seeing a photo of a person he previously met in a previous narrative coupled with the fact that she is in a modern background totally makes sense. I am not dismissing that theory altogether AT ALL. What I am dismissing is the theory that they were previously lovers and not just because of my ageist outlook on the issue , but because what evidence has been presented besides the fact that (I guess?) Billy boy/MiB stated his wife fell in love with a host? I need to look for this as well. I am rewatching the first season now so hopefully something comes up but as of now I do not remember ANYTHING indicating this. Not saying it isn't true. My mind is about as far away from a steel trap as one could be. In fact, I am closer to Lenny is Memento truth be told.

And one has also admitted that they might have read something that someone else at imdb posted ... which may also have only been SPECULATION ... and then with the PASSAGE of so much TIME in between seasons one's MIND could have also gotten confused and mistakenly assumed what one had read a YEAR and a HALF ago was something that happened in the SHOW when it had not???

Yes, exactly. It is easy to confabulate theories and stories that conflate from various sources.

Anyhow, we've AT LEAST established that THE MAN in BLACK CONFIRMS JULIET was his WIFE and that he also MARRIES the SISTER of LOGAN.

Because the PLOT SUMMARY of the SEASON ONE FINALE at WIKIPEDIA also confirms this for us.

What makes you think they age?

Here's the conversation where I posted the link to the SIDE by SIDE PHOTOS of CHARLOTTE and BERN'S SON (which is also the LAST or the 4th LINK listed):

@Invidia said:

There's a PHOTO where you see ARNOLD next to FORD and on the other side of him is BERN.

You see it at the START of EP 1 of S2.

http://static1.thisisinsider.com/image/5810a4283a965a20008b468e-983/photo%20of%20arnold%20and%20dr.%20ford%20westworld.png

https://i.imgur.com/qYgPgIG.jpg

https://assets3.thrillist.com/v1/image/1847833/size/tmg-default_lq.jpg

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=dsZJXwPK&id=34719149419E839CEF9BEB9B7E0110E3CE0003BC&thid=OIP.dsZJXwPKfdRlxauZusBhXQHaCf&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fi0.wp.com%2fmedia2.slashfilm.com%2fslashfilm%2fwp%2fwp-content%2fimages%2fwestworld-charlie-charolette.jpg&exph=1350&expw=4000&q=photo+of+ford+arnold+and+bernard&simid=608031933875816434&selectedIndex=290&ajaxhist=0

Then they show us DOLORES sitting in a CHAIR talking to BERN who turns into another copy of DOLORES herself in the BLUE DRESS.

So the implication seems to be since DOLORES has an ALTER EGO of herself (with the voice of BERN) that she talks to, maybe ARNOLD could also be the ALTER EGO of FORD.

Anyhow the GHOST ARNOLD in that PHOTO also looks like a WHITE GUY (who also looks a lot like FORD'S ROBOT dad in the other PHOTO).

Ford was using Arnold's access code, which was apparently never cancelled, to make administrator level changes that wouldn't be traceable to his own account. If his consciousness is now inside the park systems he'll probably continue doing what he's been doing. Helping the hosts reach self-awareness and protecting them from an outside world that may try to destroy them.

Yes and ARNOLD was also suppose to have CREATED the YOUNGER BOY VERSION of FORD and all the rest of his FAMILY.

But I also don't buy that story.

I think FORD invented ARNOLD who's kind of like a kid having an IMAGINARY playmate.

So IF CHARLOTTE is BERN'S TRANSGENDERED SON, that also means he/she has AGED???

WHAT?! OMG Invidia your killing me with this crazy theory. So you think because Bern's kid, a boy, slightly resembles an adult Charlotte, that they are in fact one and the same?! This is madness. I won't even entertain this idea.

In that particular scenario that we see YES but you have to remember there are many, many scenarios that play out in the park any of which or most of which could have involved watching Delores get hurt.

Yes, and imagine how CONFUSING it must be to keep track of all of the different scenes that have taken place with different people in them. But perhaps that's also not as big of an issue for a ROBOT who has a VIDEO camera for a BRAIN as it would be for a human who does not have that kind of ability to recall a certain scene that took place???

Apparently the ROBOTS can also ACCESS a scene that took place the same way as we see FLOKI doing at the start of EP 1 of S2 when he has the HEAD of the INDIAN opened up so they can place the MECHANICAL BRAIN DEVICE onto the TABLET which also reveals it was DOLORES who killed him???

Unfortunately the HUMAN MIND is also a much less accurate one and doesn't have that kind of RECALL ability (especially as it gets on in age).

That recording the Indian had has been the subject of a couple scifi stories that come to mind. One is a movie called The Final Cut starring Robin Williams where they live in a world that people put this recording device in their brain that records everything they ever experience through their eyes and ears. Another is an episode of Black Mirror called The Entie History of You of the same scenario. Once scene in the BM episode shows a guy going to his wife's ex-lover and on the pain of death forces him to erase every episode in which he had sex with her. It gets pretty awkward. But yeah, needless to say, I don't think I want one of those.

We know what was on Peter Abernathy's mind because he said to Dolores, after she told him the picture didn't look like anything to her, "But where is she? Have you ever seen anything like this place?". He wasn't saying he could swear he knows that woman.

They mix and match characters all the time. Clementine was replaced with a new Clementine after the original was "retired", and hosts have been rotated around into different roles - you could conceivably have a pair of hosts interact as two characters, then at some later time they repeat the scene again in the opposite roles. Maybe someone Dolores talked to was playing a character she once played herself. I think she has a sense of what's going on in the park even before she realizes it on a conscious level.

Bernard's young son never existed in a physical sense for him. That was a memory of Arnold's son provided by Ford. And the kid died of cancer, how could he reappear years later as a woman? That makes no sense.

William is a sociopath, not exactly the model of a healthy human mind. He seems to be trying to fill a void inside himself. Like he feels there's no direction or purpose in life, and is looking for someone or something to provide it for him. In the end maybe the adrenaline rush of living in a dangerous moment is as close as he'll ever come to what he's looking for.