@Invidia said:

What about the case where Q chose to interact with THEM???

In that case they were the PRIMITIVES.

And Q also took advantage of them and abused the POWER that he had over them.

So wouldn't they also have been better off if Q's culture also had a PRIME DIRECTIVE RULE that applied to them???

It seems like they did, at least to a lesser degree. Remember, Q ("our" Q) got kicked out of the group at least once, because they didn't like how he'd been messing with other species, especially humans.

Q said he could have become anything - any creature, any being, etc - he chose, so long as it was mortal. It was Q's choice to be human, the other Q didn't impose that on him.

Meanwhile, for something of a start-to-finish review of Prime Directive type stuff, the episode "Mad Idolatry" of the new show "The Orville" is very interesting.

The prime directive doesn't say simply "don't dominate, enslave, or threaten to obliterate less advanced cultures", it says don't influence them. Q wasn't merely exposing the Enterprise to advanced technology or concepts. Q was an existential threat to them. Q was a bit power mad.

I am not sure which point you were making.

Clearly we believe it is wrong to enslave, or dominate other cultures for our amusement, as Q enjoyed doing. Obviously we all believe that behavioral is wrong, and don't need the prime directive to avoid it. The part of my comment you quoted had nothing to do with what Q was doing.

Should the crew of the Enterprise refrain from saving someone's life by administering medical treatment? This is qualitatively vastly different from what Q did and threatened to do.

The only way to be certain to avoid influencing less advanced cultures is to avoid all contact with them. But the Enterprise is charged with exploring new worlds, which will bring them into contact with new people and new cultures, some of which may be primitive. So there is a conflict there. Do they obey the mission or do they obey the prime directive?

As to the question of whether they should abuse their power, the answer to that is always NO. But that was not the issue under discussion.

"It's not always possible to AVOID new cultures."

Not if you visit their planets. That's right.

"Thus also illustrating for us how it's much easier to SAY that someone should DO SOMETHING (like OBEY the DIRECTIVE) than it is to DO IT."

Right. There is no way to "explore new worlds" and be sure you won't come in contact with new cultures. So the mission of the Enterprise means they will break the prime directive, at least sometimes.

And they must know that. So it is silly to hold the prime directive up as the highest, most important principle because they know their mission will make them break that rule. It would be better if they were realistic about it. They could call it one of their guiding principles or something. But they should not call it the prime directive when their mission is to explore new worlds. Clearly they don't believe the prime directive is the most important rule. If they did they would not have the mission of exploring new worlds.

It is fine to say "while we go about the business of exploring new worlds, we will do our utmost to avoid influencing their cultures, avoid interfering with their politics, their science, etc." They could add in other principles as well, things like "we won't seek to dominate or take advantage of the denizens of these new worlds" and so on.

I just find it hypocritical to call that rule the prime directive.

They ways they at least sometimes describe the Prime Directive, they pledge to sacrifice their lives rather than violate it. So in a situation of a shuttle emergency etc, they should self-destruct rather than crash land on a primitive planet.

@Invidia said:

Knixon:

Have never seen THE ORIVILLE.

See if you can watch it here. If you're not in the US, it may not work.

https://www.fox.com/watch/ba3d45e428bab5118060845733b58eb0/

Not sure if they ever were that specific in TNG, but Spock acknowledges they were supposed to die rather than violate it, in "Bread And Circuses." At which point McCoy bangs with his arm/fist and yells "Must you always be so blasted honest?"

That episode of The Orville is #12, last of the season although they made 13 but apparently #13 is being held over for next season premiere, or something. Maybe because it's a cliffhanger, and they didn't want people waiting maybe 10 months for the resolution.

There must be some way to replay that episode, but I don't know what it might be. Did you look for a "previous episode" button or something, when it starts playing the next thing?

@Invidia said:

What was that BLUE STUFF that splatters all over the BLUE ALIEN that he finds his wife in bed with??? Was that suppose to be blue semen???

Apparently so.

If you do other downloading, there are other places to find the episode. Overall it would be best to start at the beginning, though. And many people think it's a far better successor to Star Trek than the awful "Discovery" is proving to be. So you could/should get the whole series, it's only 12 episodes (so far).

It HAS been renewed for next year.

Hard to characterize, but it is basically STAR TREK with more jokes ( and I personally could do without the jokes)

The running joke is that the first mate is the Captain's ex-wife, and he really doesn't like dealing with her every day.

Most of the plot lines are "serious" and well set up, though sometimes recycled from other science fictions stories..

The guy playing the captain is also the main writer.

Basically it worked out a lot better than most people expected. People often say it's closer to STAR TREK than "Star Trek Discovery" is.

I'll stop with that to avoid spoilers.

Well, Seth Macfarlane is also the creator of the cartoon series Family Guy, among others, but The Orville is at least semi-serious. You'll have to judge for yourself what the exact proportions are, and whether you like them.

Invidia: "Ok. So what RULE would you apply and call THEIR PRIME DIRECTIVE???"

Does there have to be a "prime directive"?

Why not a set of guiding principles? One of those could be a statement regarding the principle of refraining, to the highest degree possible, from interfering in the development of foreign cultures. This would include statements regarding not introducing or revealing advanced technologies to primitive cultures.

They could also include statements of principle regarding never enslaving or taking advantage of other beings and worlds. The mission of the Enterprise is a peaceful one, and there could be statements of principles which guide the crew in proper conduct.

They could have statements of principle to guide the crew in how they go about arranging to purchase any goods or supplies they made need on extended journeys. I recall an episode or two when the ship needed some dilithium crystals and were able to find a planet which had a large supply. So there should be guiding principles regarding how they compensate the denizens of such worlds for any supplies they might need to purchase from them, to ensure that they are fairly compensated and everyone is happy with the exchange.

They would need to have rules for the use of force to guide the crew on what actions they should take to protect themselves in case they are attacked by hostile elements. Use of force would be the last option ordinarily of course. Normally the advanced technologies available to crew members could alert them to potential dangers in time to allow them to withdraw, and then attempt diplomatic resolutions.

That is not a complete set of principles of course, just some examples of some they might include.

This would allow the Federation to continue its mission of discovery, exploring new worlds, meeting other races, beings, cultures, etc, making friendly alliances, mapping the far flung parts of the universe, possibly finding new trading partners, etc.

That would be a better course of action than creating a rule which they would necessarily have to break in the normal course of carrying out their mission.

Knixon: "The ways they at least sometimes describe the Prime Directive, they pledge to sacrifice their lives rather than violate it. So in a situation of a shuttle emergency etc, they should self-destruct rather than crash land on a primitive planet."

Right. I recall hearing Bones talk that way on occasion, and others as well. Often they speak of their "prime directive" as an almost sacred law. And that's a problem because it conflicts with their mission statement.

But of course it works out well for the script writers. ;-) Because it allows them to place the crew in conflict, put them between a rock and a hard place so to speak. Writers continually look for ways to create conflict and tension, because that holds the attention of the viewers. We worry how the crew can resolve the jam they find themselves in.

"If you have a LIST of RULES, isn't one of them also going to end up IN FIRST PLACE???"

Not necessarily. You might have several principles which you believe are all equally important.

But the quotes you listed above illustrate the point I was making. They treat their prime directive almost like a sacred law. The captain is directed to lay down his life and the life of his crew rather than violate the prime directive. Further on down Jean Luc says "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions." – Jean-Luc Picard, 2364 ("Justice") -and- *The Prime Directive had exceptions and allowed for violations if satisfactory reasons were given. (TOS: "The Omega Glory")

*The Prime Directive applied to "a living, growing culture". A culture that wasn't may have been exempt. (TOS: "The Return of the Archons", "The Apple")

-- If Starfleet command really feels that the prime directive is that important, then they should not send their people on suicide missions exploring new worlds. Because invariably someone is going to influence the virgin cultures they interact with, unintentionally perhaps, but it's going to happen. We have discussed this above. You gave examples and so did I. That is my point. It is stupid to send them out to these worlds if they don't want to influence them at all. Their list of what constituted interference grew longer and longer.

I wonder what was supposed to happen if someone messed up and accidentally influenced the culture, mentioned space inadvertently or something. Did he have to kill himself? Was he put to death? I mean, he was supposed to lay his life down rather than break it. So what would happen to someone who broke it accidentally? Just curious.

@CharlesTheBold said:

It HAS been renewed for next year.

Hard to characterize, but it is basically STAR TREK with more jokes ( and I personally could do without the jokes)

The running joke is that the first mate is the Captain's ex-wife, and he really doesn't like dealing with her every day.

Most of the plot lines are "serious" and well set up, though sometimes recycled from other science fictions stories..

The guy playing the captain is also the main writer.

Basically it worked out a lot better than most people expected. People often say it's closer to STAR TREK than "Star Trek Discovery" is.

I'll stop with that to avoid spoilers.

Yeah I think the humor is a little slapstick sometimes, a little political sometimes, and I don't really like the show all that much

@write2topcat said:

@CharlesTheBold said:

It HAS been renewed for next year.

Hard to characterize, but it is basically STAR TREK with more jokes ( and I personally could do without the jokes)

The running joke is that the first mate is the Captain's ex-wife, and he really doesn't like dealing with her every day.

Most of the plot lines are "serious" and well set up, though sometimes recycled from other science fictions stories..

The guy playing the captain is also the main writer.

Basically it worked out a lot better than most people expected. People often say it's closer to STAR TREK than "Star Trek Discovery" is.

I'll stop with that to avoid spoilers.

Yeah I think the humor is a little slapstick sometimes, a little political sometimes, and I don't really like the show all that much

But still, "Mad Idolatry" is a good one-episode summary of some Prime Directive issues.