I don't see how encountering another species in the universe that is asexual or whatever, would somehow change humankind's perspective about human sexuality, any more than encountering another species in the universe that breathes methane, would - or COULD - somehow change our perspective on the proper way of breathing. Or some kind of "tolerance" about other ways of breathing for humans.

But that seems to be the agenda that some are pushing. And far from the agendas disappearing, they use these ideas to amplify them, which I would say doesn't make sense.

If humans try to breathe methane, they die. Case closed. But that doesn't insult or oppress the aliens. And it doesn't prove anything about how humans are "intolerant" if we don't breathe methane too. Most importantly, some alien species being asexual does NOT somehow prove that humans should also embrace asexuality which does not work for humans and does not perpetuate the species.

@tomk1 said:

Enterprise was a bit bit straight lace at the start, the temporal war was boring. But you should watch all the seasons, as there are some great episodes, anything which the Doctor was great and that blue alien. The romance between T'Pol & Trip. T'Pol had some great episodes that add a lot to the Vulcan history. Also the origin of "Red Alert" is explained. Towards the end when they knew the show was being cancelled they went all out, nothing to loose. The best episode ever of Enterprise is 'In a Mirror, Darkly' Watch Enterprise a few times and you will see it wasn't bad, I'd say due to the originality & what it added to the ST history, it easy beats Voyager.

Frankly i thought the last season of Enterprise was its best. It kind of recaptured just a little of the original series had. And i loved the multi-episodes story arch. First Season was o.k. But i don't care for the 2nd or 3rd season. Really they canceled it when it was finally getting good.

@tomk1 said:

@Horus Mazinga said:

Not interested anymore. Stopped watching Enterprise about 5 episodes in. New movies stink. New show sounds limp and there's no way I'm paying for it. The show runners are severely unimpressive. I'm not even interested in pirating it.

I still watch Tos and NG quite often. DS9 and Voy were not good enough for a 2nd watch but had decent moments. I don't regret watching them.

Enterprise was a bit bit straight lace at the start, the temporal war was boring. But you should watch all the seasons, as there are some great episodes, anything which the Doctor was great and that blue alien. The romance between T'Pol & Trip. T'Pol had some great episodes that add a lot to the Vulcan history. Also the origin of "Red Alert" is explained. Towards the end when they knew the show was being cancelled they went all out, nothing to loose. The best episode ever of Enterprise is 'In a Mirror, Darkly'

"Reed Alert" to "Red Alert" was pretty dumb. And all of the Mirror stuff in all the series was crap, but the Enterprise versions were probably the worst of all. They get a starship from 70-100 years in the future, which means that when the TOS episode comes along 70-100 years later, they haven't advanced it AT ALL? c'mon.

Watch Enterprise a few times and you will see it wasn't bad, I'd say due to the originality & what it added to the ST history, it easy beats Voyager.

Perhaps the perfect "left-handed compliment."

@Knixon said:

I don't see how encountering another species in the universe that is asexual or whatever, would somehow change humankind's perspective about human sexuality, any more than encountering another species in the universe that breathes methane, would - or COULD - somehow change our perspective on the proper way of breathing. Or some kind of "tolerance" about other ways of breathing for humans.

But that seems to be the agenda that some are pushing. And far from the agendas disappearing, they use these ideas to amplify them, which I would say doesn't make sense.

If humans try to breathe methane, they die. Case closed. But that doesn't insult or oppress the aliens. And it doesn't prove anything about how humans are "intolerant" if we don't breathe methane too. Most importantly, some alien species being asexual does NOT somehow prove that humans should also embrace asexuality which does not work for humans and does not perpetuate the species.

Well consider this: What if in the not too distant future we (humans) encounter these your 'methane breathing' aliens and they turn out to be bigger, stronger, more intelligent and more advanced than us? What if also we soon discover that theses 'methane breathers' are just ONE variation of many, many other 'methane breathing' beings in our neighborhood of the universe? The question you should ask yourself and what takes this conversation from mere 'agendas' to real life concerns is: how should these 'methane breathers' respond to US, mankind ?!?! How should they deal with their less intelligent, less populous, less relevant, weaker, neighbors? Then from their POINT OF VIEW'methane breathing' will be the normal mode of respiration. I would hope you might want these methane breathers to show more ENLIGHTENMENT in their views than some people do on these boards when Star Trek merely ATTEMPTS to show some concerns for diversity. Whenever Star Trek tries to protect the ability of previously marginalized people (gays, minority races etc) to share in the future of mankind, some people act like that is a personal affront on their 'well established notions' of what SHOULD be!

I just hope, for all mankind's sake, that your 'Methane Breathers' are more understanding than that!

The relevant issue would be how the "methane breathers" treat their fellow "methane breathers" who differ from whatever norms they have. I don't know where people get the idea that anything concerning earth humans among themselves, has any relevance to extraterrestrials no matter how different from earth humans THEY might be. Or where those people might get the idea that extraterrestrials would be the same towards us.

Remember the TNG episode "Imaginary Friend?" Something like that. The aliens apparently had no understanding that a child wasn't just a small adult.

Or when Spock had to be slapped back to consciousness after his injury. Doesn't everyone know, HITTING IS ALWAYS WRONG? Apparently the Vulcans don't.

Or, for another example - sort of a counter-example, really, an example of what NOT to do - the alien mother in the premiere of Enterprise, whom Commander Tucker thought was somehow abusing her child when she was really just helping the child get acclimated to the "adult" atmosphere etc.

It might also help to re-read my earlier points and see if you can maybe understand them.

You seem to be arguing that unenlightened - perhaps, "conservative?" - humans would insist that the methane-breathers must breathe oxygen instead, because that's "normal," otherwise they (the aliens) are deviants or sinners or heretics or something and must be punished, imprisoned or even burned at the stake. Or that the methane-breathers, if similarly unenlightened, would insist that humans must breathe methane instead of oxygen for the same reason. Which is nonsense, and has nothing to do with human interactions among themselves including - for example - calling BS on those who claim they can change their "gender identification" on a daily basis or whatever.

What evidence do you have (just in case you're still wondering, there is NONE) that people who don't accept such gender nonsense, for example, would transfer that to aliens that happen to have 3 genders or whatever? It's ridiculous. What's normal for humans doesn't have to be normal for any kind of extraterrestrial, and vice versa.

And for the vice versa, it works the other way too: An alien race that has 3 genders doesn't "prove" that humans must practice polygamy or else be considered "xenophobic" or whatever. 3 genders (or 4, or 40) being normal for some non-human race, doesn't prove anything about humans or any other race.

Additional notes:

Kirk didn't try to send little Balok to his room without supper because Balok had been naughty.

Trelane, on the other hand, WAS a "naughty boy" - a "naughty boy" who could create PLANETS and move them about as he pleased! - and HIS "parents" dealt with him according to their own standards.

"The relevant issue would be how the "methane breathers" treat their fellow "methane breathers" who differ from whatever norms they have. "

Really? You think that THAT is what the 'relevant issue' WOULD BE? So we encounter predominant, more powerful, more intelligent, bigger 'Methane Breathing" aliens and, for you, that would be the issue?!?!... how they treat each other?!?!

No! The issue WILL BE how they TREAT US!!! since we would presumably be at A DISADVANTAGE to them or maybe even at THEIR MERCY!!!

Real space exploration HAS to include considerations of our 'first contact' and its repercussions. This is really what we are talking about here. What Star Trek is trying to do is perhaps SUGGEST or HOPE that the way we treat EACH OTHER now, will MIRROR the way our first contact with superior beings might be. With Inferior beings the issue won't matter. The argument goes something like this: Because we as humans are ENLIGHTENED and treat EVERYONE within our diversity FAIRLY....if we encounter superior beings by definition they will be even MORE ENLIGHTENED and therefore they will ALSO treat us well.

Again, this can only be a hope but it is based on some sound logic, I think. If we have progressed beyond our 'narrow prejudices' it stands to reason those who have progressed even more, have also . The 'methane breathers' might have a more 'amoral', 'Borg-like' attitude to us, however. In which case we are screwed! I would like to HOPE the HOPE portrayed in ALL of Star Trek, that ENLIGHTENED equals growth and acceptance of differences. If that sounds like an agenda to others, I would only remind them of the possibility, indeed the quite likely probability, of superior Methane Breathers out there somewhere.

I was referring to an idea that if some aliens were "intolerant" of "deviance" within their own species, that would somehow automatically be applied to other species as well. And I don't agree.

But you seem to think - or at least fear - that because some humans are racist or whatever towards other humans, that somehow naturally/automatically translates to humans being the same towards alien beings, or the aliens being the same towards us. Which is really a non sequitur.

Methane-breathing for humans is not "diversity" any more than oxygen-breathing would be for methane-breathers.

Did you know that some people made a ruckus about Neelix (from Voyager) being a "pedophile" because Kess was only like 2 years old? That's ridiculous too.

My point was that we shouldn't expect them to treat us badly just because we're "different," even if you think - fear? - that humans would somehow resent methane-breathers just because they're "different." That humans might find other HUMAN "differences" to be "beyond the pale" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how REAL aliens would be seen. Or how they would see us.

IF there are essentially hostile aliens roaming about though, it could be a huge problem if they ever came here. But that wouldn't have anything to do with humans not getting along with each other. Nor would the possibility disappear if all human conflict were somehow eliminated.

IF there are essentially hostile aliens roaming about though, it could be a huge problem if they ever came here. But that wouldn't have anything to do with humans not getting along with each other. Nor would the possibility disappear if all human conflict were somehow eliminated.

By encouraging diversity within humanity, Star Trek is, imo, trying to suggest that "getting along with each other" is ultimately a good thing, both within humanity and in the entire Cosmos. The reference to Neelix and pedophilia, on one hand, suggests how human notions might need to change when they encounter clashing alien notions but you could substitute Neelix's race for any group on earth whose marriage norms differ from 'the norm' and make the same point.

Besides, if these malevolent aliens were to "come here" as you put it...what argument would we have for mercy from them? If we defend treating EACH OTHER differently based on small 'prejudices' how can we expect anything else from them?

Btw, that 'If' is more like a 'when' because although humans might have _ dominion over the earth_ it is almost certain we don't have dominion over the universe.

It all depends on what you consider to be acceptable diversity. What if the aliens are like Kess's people, totally mature within maybe a year? Would you advocate doing away with laws dealing with age of consent etc among humans, because we have to demonstrate that kind of diversity to the aliens?

It's also possible that powerful aliens could view excessive diversity that some humans insist upon, as a weakness. And perhaps reason enough to exterminate us.

If I don't get my 'eye candy' a hunky male lead then no thanks. Gotta have it. I for one am not interested in strong female leads. Men, loads and loads of hunky good looking men. Even nerdy intelligent men.. keep the women but never put them as the main stars. Most guys would be turned off if women run the ships and are seconds. Don't ruin a good thing here peeps. Now let the shooting begin.

@Sharron Hayward :Why can't Star Trek have strong female leads AND hunky male 'eye candy' ? This is set in the future, so of course they're are going to have female Captains and First Officers! And aliens! I didn't heard this much complaining when a woman was cast as the Captain in Voyager(although I have to admit that Voyager did have male 'eye candy ' on the bridge). My question is, when is Gary Seven going to show up? In the TOS episode Assignment Earth it was hinted that he is a time traveler, so why not? Besides, I imagine that the mysterious organization he works for would be interested in what's going on in this war with the Klingons.

Considering how they screwed with/ruined Harry Mudd, I don't want to see what they would do to the beloved Gary Seven.

Knixon,

I see Harry Mudd as re-imagined not ruined. He is essentially the same secondary character, an accidental player in the ST universe only just a little darker.

The episode 'Magic to drive the sanest man mad' was not really about Mudd, or war or explosions at all! It was so much more about love and the many different expressions it takes from the space worm; to Burnham and Tyler; to the doctor and his husband; to Mudd and his on again off again wife. Love is the magic that makes the sanest man go mad.

I liked the first 2 re-boot movies. The 3rd one, not so much (even though Idris Elba playing the bad guy and the awesome Academy Award nominated makeup were good).