@Invidia said:

If you watch the first eppy's of ST: NG you'll also see how much more PRIMITIVE they were than the one's that come later on. Because when shows first begin the actors are NEW to their parts and everything else is also NEW (the SETS, PROPS, etc.), and of course it shows.

Deanna also has that horrible hair style, for example, and wardrobe that doesn't make her look as attractive as she later became.

So one also doesn't hold it against the first eppy's of VOYAGER for that reason.

I am very tolerant of Star Trek. I actually try to make an effort to find the good parts of bad episodes.

There's also another funny book that was written by KURT VONNEGAS where HUMANS end up EVOLVING into DOLPHINS after a NUKE HOLOCAUST where only ONE MALE survives and ONE GROWN FEMALE along with several other teenagers.

I like dolphins but I'm sticking with my big giant brain.

So that's the way one watches the story where PARIS EVOLVES ... as it also being a work of SATIRE and not meant to be taken as SERIOUSLY as the person did who wrote that review.

I don't agree with the reviewer. I was amazed that he was so savage.

It's sorta like the other eppy where JANEWAY plays the part of the FLASH GORDON type of ??? character???

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Bride_of_Chaotica!_(episode)

It's mostly done for FUN.

Now that one was funny. I really wanted Chaotica to get hold of a mobile emitter.

And since going FASTER than the SPEED of LIGHT also involves TIME ISSUES ... it also MAKES SENSE that something would happen to TOM.

Is WARP 10 also suppose to be FASTER than the SPEED of LIGHT???

Interesting point. In "The Making of Star Trek", warp 1 is defined as the speed of light, warp 2 is 2x2x2 the speed of light, warp 3 is 3x3x3 the speed of light. ( I didn't make this up.) But do you time travel just by going faster than the speed of light?

Did KIRK really have a SEX CHANGE and get MEMOPAUSAL???

In "Turnabout Intruder" The evil Doctor Janice Lester uses alien technology to swap bodies with Kirk.

It's an interesting story aside from the over acting. I recommend it as watching in a womens studies class just to show girls that Yeah believe it or not that was societys view of women.

Some Quotes:

Scott: Doctor, I've seen the captain feverish, sick, drunk, delirious, terrified, overjoyed, boiling mad... but up to now, I have never seen him red-faced with hysteria.

Dr. Janice Lester: I hoped I wouldn't see you again.

Captain James T. Kirk: I don't blame you.

Dr. Janice Lester: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.

Captain James T. Kirk: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.

Dr. Janice Lester: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.

Captain James T. Kirk: No, it isn't, and you punished and tortured me because of it.

Dr. Janice Lester: I loved you. We could have roamed among the stars.

Captain James T. Kirk: We'd have killed each other.

Dr. Janice Lester: It might have been better.

[last lines of the series]

Captain James T. Kirk: I didn't want to destroy her.

Mr. Spock: I'm sure we all understand that, Captain.

Captain James T. Kirk: Her life could have been as rich as any woman's, if only... if only...

Can't remember that one!!! Must have also been pretty FUNNY though to watch him having HOT FLASHES???

You travel through time at a different speed and/or direction than everyone else. It can be willing or not. It's possible to change location but that doesn't affect the definition.

So whereas you say one can CHANGE the LOCATION, but that doesn't CHANGE the DEFINITION, after what happens to TOM, perhaps one does need to take the LOCATION into consideration after all???

A time traveler may need to change location in order to achieve time travel, but thy are still two different concepts. (Marty Mc Fly comes to mind.)

Due to the way the LOCATION also determines WHAT it is that we EVOLVE into???

What's interesting about WELL'S STORY is the way he kept getting the SAME RESULTS each TIME that he tried to MANIPULATE TIME as a way to save the woman he loved.

So if she died of one cause, and he went BACK in TIME to prevent it from happening, then something else different (like an AUTO ACCIDENT) would happen to her and she'd still DIE anyhow.

And that's also the reason why he GAVE UP, because trying to CHANGE what happens to her only happens again in another different way (thus also meaning he relives her DEATH and deals with the SAME GRIEF he tries to prevent all over again).

So that's also still another interesting aspect of TIME TRAVEL to ponder. Can one ever really do anything to prevent something from happening that one doesn't want to happen???

Or is someone or something else also in CONTROL of things that happen???

There's also another SHOW called THROUGH the WORMHOLE where the idea's put forth that we ourselves may also be HOLOGRAPHIC creations that have been CREATED by our FURTURE SELVES as a way to ENTERTAIN ourselves.

So that's still another FREAKY thing to consider.

This is what I like to think of as "The writers morality syndrome". If you go back in time and change the past will it change your current state of being. Some writers take this to extremes, as in "oh no! I bent a blade of grass! the future is doomed!" to "It doesn't matter what you do in the past, history will correct itself"

https://youtu.be/RSB3bRTYnLw

I maintain that it depends on how big the action is.

https://youtu.be/IX33Diwrv3A?list=PLKKYUOEIIsSBBUrSFastXkcvRwU9BSJw2

Captain Yelland: If the United States falls under attack our job is to defend her in the past, present and future.

Lasky: And after that?

Captain Yelland: After that, we take our orders from the Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces.

Lasky: Franklin Delano Roosevelt?

Ever see THE THIRTEETH FLOOR???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirteenth_Floor

Characters from the 1990's create HOLOGRAPHIC copies of themselves that inhabit the 1930's ERA, then the characters from the 90's discover that they themselves are also HOLOGRAPHIC BEINGS that were created by others who inhabit the year 2024 (who also created them in their OWN IMAGE the same way as the 90's characters create the 30's characters in their own image).

Great story. Interesting idea.

I'm pretty sure I saw that. Didn't it end with an infinite number of layers?

Was the TARDIS always breaking down?

For the first 25 years it was.

In DS9 whenever they went to another different DIMENSION or ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE or whatever one calls it, didn't they also find EVIL characters there who were their opposites or their counterparts and were pretty much also like a case of DR. JEKYLL dealing with his MR. HYDE side???

Well, where would be the fun of going to a happy dimension? Does evil Ryker have a beard?

But after seeing some clips from some kind of REALITY TV where they show what AMISH life is like, maybe it also wouldn't be that much different after all??? Because some of those AMISH TEENAGERS were also pretty FREAKY and completely out of control.

I could have picked anywhere that people seem behind the times. I chose the Amish because they are that way by choice.

DANG! For some reason I was not notified of your response. I blame the Time Lords.

Was it in ST: NG where the Holographic NEMESIS of the famous English detective (named SHERLOCK) figures out what he was and how to get control of the ship???

In other words, that MORIARTY character was also a much worse threat to them than the one that PARIS creates.

This brings up an issue that annoys me. The Doctor is a hologram. Yet he is treated as a member of the crew. What about those countless holograms created on the holodecks? Can Leonardo DaVinci not have a full life in the 24th century?

And since going FASTER than the SPEED of LIGHT also involves TIME ISSUES ... it also MAKES SENSE that something would happen to TOM.

Is WARP 10 also suppose to be FASTER than the SPEED of LIGHT???

Interesting point. In "The Making of Star Trek", warp 1 is defined as the speed of light, warp 2 is 2x2x2 the speed of light, warp 3 is 3x3x3 the speed of light. ( I didn't make this up.) But do you time travel just by going faster than the speed of light?

DAMN. So PARIS was suppose to be really hauling ass when he breaks Warp 10???

Here's a link to a VIDEO and another link that explains what's involved when you travel FASTER than the SPEED of LIGHT, and the live science link that's quoted below also concludes the same way as JANEWAY does when she talks about getting a HEADACHE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=34&v=Gui3RDjT18c

read:https://www.livescience.com/16207-faster-light-discovery-time-travel.html

According to Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity, neutrinos shouldn't even be able to match light speed, much less break it. Neutrinos have (very small) mass, and as Einstein posited in his famous E=mc squared equation, mass is equal to energy. As something speeds up, its energy increases, too. Because energy is equivalent to mass, its mass increases. Now you've got a heavier object, so you've got to add even more energy to get it going faster. Before you know it, you need "completely unreasonable" amounts of energy to keep inching your object toward light speed

What does that mean for time travel? In theory, it might be more possible than scientists had thought. Einstein pointed out that time is relative: As you approach light speed, your experience of time is not the same as it is for the folks chugging along at their usual speed. What feels like a second to you will feel like much longer to them. This idea, called "time dilation," spawned such sci-fi classics as 1968's "Planet of the Apes," in which what feels like 18 months to Charleton Heston and his crew is enough time for gorillas, chimps and orangutans to evolve language and complex societies back on Earth. [Top 10 Scary Sci-Fi Series]

There are a lot of barriers to approaching light speed, much less breaking it, but if you could, you could theoretically experience time running backward,

As you approach light speed, you might time goes slower in the outside world than it does for you. When you hit light speed, the outside world goes so slow in relation to you that it stops (again, in relation to you; people in the outside world feel as if time is the same as always). So if you could push past that speed limit, the outside world would be so slow as to be moving backward in relation to you.

So far, this seems pretty much impossible, not least because some other side effects of faster-than-light travel should include reducing your weight and width to less than nothing,

When you allow the past, present and future to interact, "that gets all messed up," Lloyd said, and you start to get paradoxes. A classic is the Grandfather Paradox: What if you went back in time and shot your grandfather, preventing your own birth and thus preventing yourself from ever shooting your grandfather?

It's a headache, to say the least.

As you can see, there's problems that are NEVER ADDRESSED in the show, such as the way one TAKES on MORE MASS (which we also don't see happening when PARIS breaks Warp 10).

And what happens is OTHERS go more SLOW in TIME in comparison to you, which also makes it appear as if they've gone backwards in time.

So IF TOM is HAULING ASS that FAST, one also sees the reason why he's so far ahead of them (TIME WISE) that's he's EVOLED into being that other CREATURE from the FUTURE TIME.

Getting a HEADACHE yet???

OK............I had to consult my spirit guide Wild Turkey.

Yesterday JANEWAY also MIND MELDS with TUVOK which then takes her BACK in time 80 YEARS to when he was on a ship with SULU as the CAPT of the ship.

Well, that's just Quantum Leap all over again.

This is what I like to think of as "The writers morality syndrome". If you go back in time and change the past will it change your current state of being. Some writers take this to extremes, as in "oh no! I bent a blade of grass! the future is doomed!" to "It doesn't matter what you do in the past, history will correct itself"

https://youtu.be/RSB3bRTYnLw

Thanks for this link as well. The course he mentions in ELEMENTARY TEMPORAL DIRECTIVES also makes it sound like they've been put through HELL before they get assigned to a ship.

Those kind of TEMPORAL courses must have also given JANEWAY lots of headaches???

I maintain that it depends on how big the action is.

https://youtu.be/IX33Diwrv3A?list=PLKKYUOEIIsSBBUrSFastXkcvRwU9BSJw2

Captain Yelland: If the United States falls under attack our job is to defend her in the past, present and future.

Lasky: And after that?

Captain Yelland: After that, we take our orders from the Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces.

Lasky: Franklin Delano Roosevelt?

FDR???

FDR? The commander in chief of the United States Armed Forces? https://youtu.be/lK8gYGg0dkE

Was the TARDIS always breaking down?

For the first 25 years it was.

Having only seen about 5 or 6 SEASONS of the show that also explains the reason why one wouldn't know that.

One wouldn't, but two might

Well, where would be the fun of going to a happy dimension? Does evil Ryker have a beard?

Was RYKER in DS9???

In TOS the "evil" Spock had a goatee. This has become a trope that the evil version of a person has a goatee/beard. Since the "good" Ryker has a beard, what does the evil Ryker have?

Then they also reach the point where they have MORE ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY than VOYAGER has and try to DESTROY them.

Well, That's a negative view of people!

@Invidia said:

This brings up an issue that annoys me. The Doctor is a hologram. Yet he is treated as a member of the crew. What about those countless holograms created on the holodecks? Can Leonardo DaVinci not have a full life in the 24th century?

Good Question. Perhaps the fact that he's from another different century prevents him from having the same STATUS as the DOC???

Because he wouldn't really fit in within our society walking around dressed the way he was, and it might also violate the TEMPORAL PRIME DIRECTIVE to introduce him into a more ADVANCED SOCIETY???

Perhaps the fact that he's a PERSONAL CREATION of JANEWAY may also have something to do with it???

Whereas the DOC constantly interacts with the crew on a daily basis the other HOLOGRAMS are mostly there for the AMUSEMENT of others who created them to entertain themselves in their SPARE TIME???

So it might also be a bit like a little girl also wanting her doll or teddy bear to have the same status legal as any other HUMAN???

I can't buy that argument. The DaVinci character was created by Janeway using her perspective on what he would be like. There would be no temporal problems any more than if someone believed he was DaVinci.

When the Doctor first appeared, he was little more than a glorified first aid kit. The more he was activated, the more his personality (such as it is) grew. Why not DaVinci. And to go further, what about those countless other holograms? Do we not count them just because they're not famous?

I'm sure the Federation has am equivalence to the ACLU. When will they get involved? Voyager does have an option. They found a dimension where the people were all holograms. Why not send them there?

A final thought: https://youtu.be/vZ7CGBM4JJo

IF we also had the VOYAGER or another ALIEN SKY SHIP floating around above us that also refused to communicate with us, perhaps we might also feel the same way about it as they did and see it as a threat to us???

But when it's also been there for several centuries and nothing bad has ever happened, perhaps they also shouldn't have seen it as being a threat???

Or maybe one's there right now but is CLOAKED like a KLINGON ship and we can't see it for that reason???

I have no problem with space aliens. They've been around since at least 1952. They've never caused any problems that I know of. They're not trying to shove their religion down our throats or take our jobs or drive around playing their loud space "music" and they've got the good sense to stay in their own neighborhoods. I just wish all aliens were like them.

@Invidia said:

Thanks for the link.

Interesting how PICARD says he doesn't know if the HOLOGRAPHIC GUYS world and his wife and kids will exist or not.

When the Doctor first appeared, he was little more than a glorified first aid kit. The more he was activated, the more his personality (such as it is) grew. Why not DaVinci. And to go further, what about those countless other holograms? Do we not count them just because they're not famous? I'm sure the Federation has am equivalence to the ACLU. When will they get involved? Voyager does have an option. They found a dimension where the people were all holograms. Why not send them there?

Yes exactly. That's the point. These other HOLOGRAPHIC characters aren't interacting with other humans on a DAILY/HOURLY basis like the DOC is so they don't have the same chance to GROW as he does.

I can easily make a comparison with the differences between a child who is taught to be socially active and one who is kept in his room. Does giving Leo more opportunities make him "better" than the bartender at Tom Paris's French tavern? If time is an issue, consider Fairhaven that was left running non-stop with many crew members stopping by.

But didn't they also worry about BARKLEY spending too much time in the HOLODECK with HOLOGRAPHIC beings???

So apparently its also not HEALTHY to do that for some reason???

It would be sort of like if we spend all day inside of a VIRTUAL REALITY game or something???

Barkley had many problems and he used the holodecks to escape. If he didn't have that I'm sure he would have found something else.

And what about LEO???

When he's programed to like life his life in the MID AGES, where they didn't have electricity, would he be able to ADJUST to having it???

Nonsense. DaVinci is a smart man who loves learning. He would pick up on the 24th century pretty quickly. Consider ST:TNG Times Arrow, where Mark Twain visits the future:

https://youtu.be/9yzjk-m2vtc

Anyhow, apparently SPENDING TIME with them would be the KEY to their EVOLUTION, but doing that might also be DETRIMENTAL to one's health???

I think that the key point is whether or not artificial intelligence is "alive" Are Data and the Doctor alive or do they just give that appearance. And if they are, at what point did that happen? Are philosophical/religious arguments going on? "AI is alive at the moment of programming! HALELUJA!"

Did they FIND a DIMENSION where everyone was a HOLGRAM or did they create one for them?

https://youtu.be/pcT8fJ9WcHQ

https://youtu.be/jq5mCWZUF5U

I have no problem with space aliens. They've been around since at least 1952. They've never caused any problems that I know of. They're not trying to shove their religion down our throats or take our jobs or drive around playing their loud space "music" and they've got the good sense to stay in their own neighborhoods. I just wish all aliens were like them.

Is the reference to 52 due to the way that 12 or 13 aircraft were seen flying over the US CAPITAL at that time???

ooops. I meant 1947

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

Or perhaps they also live inside of CLOAKED NEIGHBORHOODS out in the desert???

Or above us???

Why do you think they came here in the first place???

https://youtu.be/A-l9-dI4k60

@Invidia said:

I can easily make a comparison with the differences between a child who is taught to be socially active and one who is kept in his room. Does giving Leo more opportunities make him "better" than the bartender at Tom Paris's French tavern? If time is an issue, consider Fairhaven that was left running non-stop with many crew members stopping by.

Didn't JANEWAY also run into a situation where she created a TOO PERFECT HOLOGRAPHIC character (as a LOVE interest for her) which caused problems???

Was it the BARTENDER at FAIRHAVEN that she TWEEKED or someone else???

She made him taller and had other changes made to his appearance to make him look more desirable to her, and she also orders the computer to make him smarter and fixed it so that she couldn't do anything to change him or to outsmart him anymore or something???

So she was also falling into the same kind of trap as BARCLAY.

I have no memory of that happening. Are you sure it was "Fairhaven"?

Then she also had another problem when HOLOGRAPHIC characters (from another program that takes place during the CIVIL WAR TIME frame) start showing up outside the HOLODECK. along with other objects from that time frame like a TEA CUP.

I'm pretty sure that was "The Q and the Grey", not a holodecks episode.

And didn't the FAIRHAVEN program itself also go HAYWIRE and breakdown as well???

Well yes but it was repaired by the end. The holos even accepted the crew for who they were.

DaVinci is a smart man who loves learning. He would pick up on the 24th century pretty quickly. Consider ST:TNG Times Arrow, where Mark Twain visits the future:

And didn't TWAIN also have a problem of some kind near he end of that eppy about him???

Just the reverse. He was bitter and cynical until his conversation with Troy. (Typical Star Trek: one conversation changes a persons lifelong worldview.)

In REAL life he was pretty DEPRESSED near the end of his life due to the way MOST of the members of his family had DIED and he was left alone with just one daughter who was also sickly and dies.

I see his problems as not having time travel capabilities.

And LEO must have also been DEPRESSED with the way he was held PRISONER inside of his home by the POPE who also ordered him to CONFESS that he was WRONG about the EARTH going round the SUN and threatened to KILL HIM if he didnt' ADMIT the BIBLE was right when it said the SUN goes round the Earth.

You're thinking of Copernicus (or Galileo, I forget). Leo died quite comfortably in a French castle being tended by the king.

A film about ROSWELL suggested the Silver stuff that fell down in ROSWELL was part of a secret weather balloon.

There has been so much put out about Roswell, most of it contradictory, that I'm willing to wait for the aliens to give us their side of the story.

Did you see that other VIDEO RYKER made where they show an ALIEN BODY as if it's a REAL ONE???

Are you thinking of this?:

https://youtu.be/sl3HJGMFZp8

Here's a link and another video of the UFO's flying over the CAPITAL back in 52:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM98yIOOmzI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Washington,_D.C._UFO_incident

Cool links thanks

@Invidia said:

No not that eppy from the ST show. JONATHAN did an ALIEN AUTOPSY DOCUMENTARY that was aired.

Here's a review of it from the imdb site:

Alien Autopsy: (Fact or Fiction?) (1995 TV Movie)

Storyline: This provacative FOX Network "prime time" television special investigates the purported "Alien Autopsy" footage that was allegedly filmed by the United States military after the legendary UFO crash near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.

I've seen that. Pretty much everybody agrees that it's fake. They even made fun of it on X-Files (couldn't find a link).

Here's a FAIRHAVEN LINK:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Haven_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)

Janeway stops again to visit the program, but eventually becomes involved in an all-night "fun-n-chat" session with one of the holodeck characters named Michael Sullivan. After spending the entire night lost in a relaxed enjoyable "date" with Sullivan, morning brings his holo-wife into the program. At this point Janeway is flustered, and leaves the program,

Janeway even gets involved in doing a little creative programming herself, by editing the character of Sullivan, the holo-man she found so enjoyable. She gives him more intelligence, a few traits that make him more compatible with her personality, and finally deletes his holo-wife. While Janeway is fraternising with her "new-and-improved" version of Sullivan, Chakotay happens through the program, but does not interfere.

At this point Janeway has mixed emotions about her motives, and eventually discusses moral and ethical implications of having a "relationship" with a holodeck character with Chakotay. Being so far removed from any practical relationship with a "real" person, and realising that her first officer believes it could produce healthy results, Janeway continues to enjoy the holodeck program (as "Katie O'Clare"). Eventually she loses herself in the program to the point where she removes the other characters, and kisses Sullivan.

While the captain is out tending to ship's business in the real-world, Sullivan, who is depressed because he thinks Katie has left him, starts a fight in the holodeck which quickly grows into an all out brawl with both holodeck characters and crew members suffering the effects. The captain eventually walks in, and after learning what happened, shares her thoughts and concerns with the Doctor. The Doctor, of course, sees all holograms as equals to the flesh and blood counterparts, and provides his perspective to the captain.

...the storm hits with its most destructive forces taking out many of the ship's systems. While some of the holodeck program Fair Haven survives, many of its finer points are lost. When approached by Tom and Harry about what can and should be saved, the captain returns to the holodeck. She does decide to save the character of Sullivan, and after more thought - tells the computer to deny her access to modifying any more of the program's sub-routines. The story arc is concluded in Spirit Folk the other Voyager episode featuring the town.

So imagine what could happen if MR. D falls in love with JANEWAY or SEVEN of 9 or someone else if he was also interacting with them like the DOC does (who also got INFACTUATED with Seven).

Was this part of the show? It sound more like fan fiction to me.

Here's the other eppy with Q in it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Q_and_the_Grey

Here's the other different EPPY with JANEWAY in it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janeway_Lambda_one

Janeway Lambda one is a holonovel, or advanced virtual reality adventure, experienced by one of the characters in the science fiction television series Star Trek: Voyager. It is a sub-plot that runs across several episodes of seasons one and two of the series. In the holonovel, Kathryn Janeway (Kate Mulgrew), finds a temporary escape from her responsibilities as captain of the starship Voyager by playing the role of governess Lucille Davenport in a Gothic fantasy set in Victorian England. The holonovel includes Michael Cumpsty as Lord Burleigh, and Thomas Dekker and Lindsey Haun as Burleigh's children. Carolyn Seymour also guest stars as the housekeeper Mrs. Templeton; Seymour previously played two separate Romulan commanders in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Starting with Janeway Lambda one, Voyager's writing team conceived the holonovel as an expansion of the holodeck technology shown earlier in the Star Trek franchise, and a futuristic take on the audiobook.

So it's VICTORIAN ENGLAND and not the CIVIL WAR that she's dressed up for. Sorry about that.

To be fair, there's not a lot of difference between the civil war South and Victorian England.

creator of the Star Trek: Voyager series, originally conceived the Janeway Lambda one holonovel as a simulation of Western fiction in which Captain Janeway would assume the role of a pioneer woman struggling to contend with the elements and to care for her family. The holonovel's genre was later changed to a work of Gothic fiction set in 1840s England after Mulgrew refused to work with horses ...

So perhaps that's also a reason for the confusion???

The story also reminds one of the stories written by one of the BRONTE sisters which is also why it next says this about it:

The set for the Burleigh manor was constructed on Paramount Stage 16, and was nicknamed "the Jane Eyre set" by the film crew. The holonovel was compared to Henry James' novella The Turn of the Screw and Daphne du Maurier's novel Rebecca.

I've never been a Janeway fan. I probably just skimmed those episodes.

Have you ever seen FIREFLY???

https://youtu.be/cksoOOh47cQ

Perhaps that show also ran into the same kind of problem due to the way it's suppose to be a SCI FI show, but it kept turning into a WESTERN show each time it visits one of the planets where they still lived like they did back in the days of the WILD WEST.

I never saw Firefly as a western. It just made sense to dress that way. It's not like:

https://youtu.be/hU4lTEVa9vA

So each time they enter the HOLODECK and encounter another different ERA, apparently the fans of the show didn't like it anymore than those who viewed FIREFLY (which was also cancelled after it's first season)???

The fans loved the show. It was the studio that hated it.

So IF anyone had an idea for turning Mr. D into a character like the DOC this may also be the reason why he never made it to havin the same status as the DOC???

It could have been fun watching them upstage each other in sickbay.

TROY was also a VERY GOOD THERAPIST. Her ability to READ or SENSE one's EMOTIONAL STATE probably also came in handy when she was dealing with MARK TWAIN???

Plus she'd also have had LOTS of other HISTORICAL DATA about him??? Thus also giving her the advantage on him if he tried to HIDE or DENY something from his past???

That and she could read his mind.

So for that reason her THERAPY SESSIONS with him could probably also proceed much faster than normal???

Or maybe she could have even used the computer to do a little bit of TWEEKING of his personality (the same way as JANEWAY did the other HOLOCHARACTER)???

And she may also have justified doing it by telling herself what she did was the same as if any other therapist would put someone on MEDS for some kind of CHEMICAL IMBALANCE they'd have in the BRAIN???

And isn't DEPRESSION also based upon one's having a CHEMICAL IMBALANCE of some kind???

Yeah but good writing comes from unhappy people. What would Twain write about?

I'm willing to wait for the aliens to give us their side of the story.

Unfortunately we might have quite a wait upon our hands???

Honestly, would you want to make contact with us as HOSTILE as we are to each other if you were an ALIEN???

https://youtu.be/bPBzj90Su8A

https://youtu.be/5ufh8fctr3o

Well, like I said, I'm not a fan of Janeway. I probably fast forwarded past her part of the show.

@Invidia said:

If you're going to FAST FORWARD through parts of the show that contain the MAIN CHARACTER or the CAPTIAN of the show, there doesn't even seem to be a reason to bother watching it.

Because you're also going to miss seeing a MAJOR PART of it if you do that.

It would be like watching a BATMAN or SUPERMAN movie and FAST FORWARDING through he parts of it where those characters were in it.

Also FOUND THIS:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci,_A_Memory_of_His_Childhood

Where FREUD tried to do a study of LEO's personality.

Here's another link regarding the same matter:

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2010/mar/26/art-sigmund-freud-leonardo-da-vinci

And another:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/00030651010490040501

Thanks for the links.

So ...

how did you ever manage to FAST FORWARD through the scenes with LEO and JANEWAY in them enough to want to still see LEO become a HOLOGRAPHIC character like the DOC???

First off, Voyager is an **ensemble **show. Janeway may be captain, but the show as a show can get by without her.

How I do it. And to be clear, I had all seven seasons on loan and had to return them.

As I began watching, I got interested in the storylines of some characters and not others. If Janeway was on one of her many soul searching monologues, I would skip ahead to The Doctor and Seven dancing or Tom and BeLanna arguing/making up. Why would I watch this tedious woman feel sorry for herself? If on the other hand, it looks like she is advancing the plot then I can move back to the start of the scene. In this method, I like John Rhys-Davies. When I saw him on screen I would return to the beginning of the scene. And I'm not a purist about Janeway . I liked watching her dealing with Q. I liked her as Queen of the Spider People. She had her moments. So, it's very conceivable that I bypassed her screwing up Fairhaven for her own personal pleasure without giving it much thought (much like she did with Michael Sullivan).

What wreaked Voyager for me is when it became Star Trek : Seven of Nine.

@PhelpsFan said:

What wreaked Voyager for me is when it became Star Trek : Seven of Nine.

For me, the more I think about it, it's all of those annoying plot holes that they just let pass. TOS had the excuse that recording devices didn't exist but by the time of Voyager they KNEW that Trekies would comb the stories.

In one episode, they had to hide all of their telepaths. (Including two Betazoids)

Later in another episode Janeway complains:" What I wouldn't give to have a Betazoid on board."

And that's just me remembering. Just think if somebody did some real research.

Even the actress who played Seven admits KATE's a WONDERUL actress, and I agree.

I never said Kate Mulgrew was a bad actress. I said I didn't Like Janeway. Even her older self described her as arrogant.

https://youtu.be/M3CT_qVzL84

In the case of RYKER and PICARD they fall in love with the creation and get TRAPPED in the HOLODECK.

In the case of KATE she also falls in love with her creation, which also causes a fight to break out in the HOLODECK.

People are always falling in love with inanimate objects: Children with their stuffed toys, Teenaged boys with their cars, Japanese business men with their....ah..hem. So I can easily see people falling in love with a holodecks character. At least it gives ships counselors something to do.

https://youtu.be/7-SVvtxHJGU

Aside from the horrifying example of "Elementary My Dear Data, there are other examples.

Imagine LEO getting elected as POTUS, for example, and then declaring that EVERYONE be required to be CATHOLIC and be subjected to whatever the RULES of the POPE would be (because that's the way things were back when he lived ... and he might also see our society as an IMMORAL one that's DEVOLVED to the point where it needs the GUIDANCE of the POPE again).

In the 24th century, the United States doesn't exist. If it did, then Leo wouldn't be a citizen. However, historically, John Kennedy (as the first Catholic president) had to reassure voters that he took his orders from the U.S. Constitution not the Pope.

So this also CONFIRMS how DANGEROUS it already was to have the HOLOGRAPHIC LEO program.

There is a simple solution. Simply declare all holograms, artificial life etc. to be machines very clever and adaptive machines grant you but machines never the less.

https://youtu.be/SRcKt4PP0yM

@Invidia said:

Thanks for the clarification that it's the JANEWAY character you don't like.

I also like the character as well ... the way she MOTHER'S SEVEN ... teacher's her how to MOTHER the other BORG kids, etc.

You might want to have your spell check looked into.

SEVEN also just told JANEWAY she was right and it had WORKED this time (with the implication it wouldn't work NEXT TIME).

In other words, this eppy also demonstrates how SEVEN's also just as ARROGANT (if not MORE SO) than her CAPT.

As for JANEWAY's ARROGANCE ...

imo, it also PALES in comparison to that of KIRK.

I'm not about to defend Kirk or Seven on the subject of arrogance. Seven had the excuse of being Borg at least.

On the whole, I not only find her much less ARROGANT than him, but also much more LIKEABLE than either KIRK or the more STANDOFFISH and less gregarious PICARD.

Janeway seems to want it both ways: warm and compassionate on one occasion and tough as nails the next. I believe that ,once again it's the fault of poor writing.

Speaking of COUNSELORS ...

who had that ROLE on VOYAGER???

I don't think it was ever shown. But then again I imagine that there were many positions that weren't shown.

Yes LEO wouldn't qualify to be POTUS with his not being BORN there, but was just using an example of how his coming from another different ERA would also give him an entirely different set of values than we currently have or they have there in the 24TH CENTURY.

Ah but you're thinking of the REAL Leo. In Star Trek land. There have been plenty of examples of people brought from the past who adjust with amazing ease.

(can't find the examples I'm thinking of)

And yes didn't JFK also have to declare that his main concerns would be to HIS COUNTRY and NOT to the POPE???

I thought that was my point.

And, imo, both DATA and the DOC had EARNED it, whereas LEO didn't, because as was pointed out before, he wasn't in a position where he constantly INTERACTED with other HUMANS on a DAILY/HOURLY basis on the ship.

You live in a very frightening universe. A being is considered "human" only if he EARNS it?

And with his already assuming that he WAS HUMAN, he also had NO REASON to STUDY the HUMAN RACE, or try to learn more about how to BE HUMAN (which is also something that both DATA and the DOC did).

DaVinci studied the human race his whole life. Why would his hologram not do the same?

So it would also be THE ARROGANCE of LEO that could keep him from being granted the same LEGAL STATUS as other HUMANS.

By that logic, are people who are arrogant not human?

Did you also NOTE the way one of the links provided points out how he's also a NARCISSIST???

Would such an EGO even be able to GAZE into the MIRROR at himself and accept the FACT that he's a HOLOGRAM and NOT HUMAN???

You do realize that you are also describing the Doctor.

Well I'm considered arrogant but I did pass my annual "yep, she's human" exam last week. :-)

After considering the many people I know that are arrogant, maybe Invidia is on to something. Just think of how empty Washington and Hollywood would be.

@Invidia said:

@Tim-Buktu said:

@Invidia said:

Thanks for the clarification that it's the JANEWAY character you don't like.

I also like the character as well ... the way she MOTHER'S SEVEN ... teaching her how to MOTHER the other BORG kids, etc.

You might want to have your spell check looked into.

SPELL CHECK doesn't catch stuff where one is busy MULTI TASKING (watching VOYAGER at the same time one is posting) and NOT paying attention enough to what one is typing.

And it's also too busy catching other stuff that's HIGHLIGHTED in RED ... like YOUR POSTING NAME BUKTU and my posting name, and the abbreviation EPPY and IMO which also makes one IGNORE the RED stuff when one already also sees so much of it in one's message . JANEWAY's name is also in RED as well.

No offense was intended. Up until now I saw very few misspellings. So I was surprised.

Remember the PSYCHOLOGY of GENDER LECTURE???

Gender studies in this era of Harvey Weinstein is a very delicate subject that I stay away from. But arrogance is not the same as a strong moral compass.

On leadership:

https://youtu.be/6SOTBHAcLV4

A female leader with a strong moral compass:

https://youtu.be/RaSmassvv4w

https://youtu.be/sGRxM1I-M_0

What JANEWAY has is a BALANCE of BOTH TRAITS: MASCULINE and FEMININE

Sure if you say so. My opinion is that it could have been written better. To me it felt like oil and water.

I don't think it was ever shown. But then again I imagine that there were many positions that weren't shown.

Just watched an EPPY tonight where the ISSUE is discussed. SEVEN PUNCHED a guy, which then leads to THE DOC pointing out how they don't have a COUNSELOR, so he decides to step into that ROLE because he's also UPDATED his PSYCHOLOGICAL SUB ROUETINS. The result is DISASTER when THE DOC and SEVEN FALSELY accuse the guy she PUNCHED of having STOLEN some NANO PROBES from her which he had not, so the guy FALSELY accused also commits suicide.

Well this is a perfect example of downloading information without giving it time to assimilate. Personally I would rather have a cup of coffee with Neelix.

Yes LEO wouldn't qualify to be POTUS with his not being BORN there, but was just using an example of how his coming from another different ERA would also give him an entirely different set of values than we currently have or they have there in the 24TH CENTURY.

Ah but you're thinking of the REAL Leo. In Star Trek land. There have been plenty of examples of people brought from the past who adjust with amazing ease.

(can't find the examples I'm thinking of)

Here's one:

https://youtu.be/ui6g23ygov8

But you are assuming that because a person is born in a certain era they are destined to remain in that mind set. I completely disagree, especially with a mind like DaVincis. In "Concerning Flight", wasn't DaVinci working in a 24th century lab?

JANEWAY also explains to LEO how if she tried to explain to him the kind of ADVANCED TRANSPORTER TECHNOLOGY she used in front of him it would be like trying to explain it to a SPARROW that didn't have a brain developed enough to comprehend it or what she was saying about it to it.

Another example of Janeways arrogance.

Anyhow, we also don't really KNOW WHO PROGRAMS LEO to be LEO.

I assumed it was Janeway herself backed up by historical records. Do you think she programmed him to be less intelligent?

But we do know that he thinks he's IN AMERICA when he's NOT, and JANEWAY also explains how he needs to go back to EUROPE (which is the HOLODECK) after the PIRATES STEAL him and used him as a way to MAKE WEAPONS for them (by using THE DOC's EMITTER which they'd also STOLEN).

In other words, having the LEO program also turns out to be a DANGEROUS one when it's STOLEN and then used by the THIEVES as a way to PRODUCE the ADVANCED WEAPONS that he makes for them.

Leo can only make decisions based on the information he has. If someone sat him down and explained the situation, I'm sure they'd find him a pretty quick study.

And, imo, both DATA and the DOC had EARNED it, whereas LEO didn't, because as was pointed out before, he wasn't in a position where he constantly INTERACTED with other HUMANS on a DAILY/HOURLY basis on the ship.

You live in a very frightening universe. A being is considered "human" only if he EARNS it?

The POINT is LEO hasn't reached the point where he DESERVES to have the same kind of a HEARING to be GRANTED the SAME KIND of LEGAL STATUS as DATA and THE DOC.

And the EPPY where LEO was STOLEN could also be used at one as a way to ARGUE that he didn't DESERVE to have HUMAN STATUS (due to the way LEO's also NOT even AWARE that he's a HOLOGRAPHIC character whereas DATA and the DOC are already AWARE of what they are).

So isn't SELF AWARENESS also the POINT and a part of being HUMAN.

We are treading on dangerous ground here. We are asking at what moment does a collection of "stuff" become human. The Doctor, you say, has Earned the right to be human. But how did he get that opportunity? By interacting with humans? So what was the town of Fairhaven doing? Why haven't they given the same opportunity to Leo?

And with his already assuming that he WAS HUMAN, he also had NO REASON to STUDY the HUMAN RACE, or try to learn more about how to BE HUMAN (which is also something that both DATA and the DOC did).

DaVinci studied the human race his whole life. Why would his hologram not do the same?

So it would also be THE ARROGANCE of LEO that could keep him from being granted Yes BOTH the DOC and SEVEN were also extremely NARCISSISTIC as well.

In defense of Seven her arrogance is based on her Borg heritage, the same as many cultures today.