Capt. Janeway was arrogant. She says so herself.

Kirk, Seven and DaVinci were also arrogant.

(Surprisingly Be'Lanna Torres, an angry Klingon engineer, never struck me that way.)

I included the excerpts of Susan Ivanova as examples of good writing of strong female leaders. There are many others.

Don't misunderstand me. It's not Janeway herself that bothers me. It's the writing. I've seen this happen with many female leads. I feel as though the writers said "let's put boobs on Kirk" and let it go at that.

https://youtu.be/l-tAyQAS6JY

And to be fair they had a lot of bad writing on this show.

A female leader with a strong moral compass:

https://youtu.be/RaSmassvv4w

https://youtu.be/sGRxM1I-M_0

LOVED B5 and the character we see portrayed in these clips. But if the implication is she's MORALISTICALLY BETTER than JANEWAY, I don't buy that.

I never said "better" I said strong.

Thanks for the links.

Also saw the other link you posted to another different topic where DATA was a HICK in court talking about WORMS and CHICKENS and was LMAO.

My original idea was; picture Seven standing next to him as his wife. That has pledge drive written all over it.

What JANEWAY has is a BALANCE of BOTH TRAITS: MASCULINE and FEMININE

Sure if you say so. My opinion is that it could have been written better. To me it felt like oil and water.

Perhaps your being a MALE (if you're MALE) may have something to do with that??? For some reason MALES don't seem to relate very well to FEMALE characters in MALE ROLES. A friend from another country said the MALES in the audience kept LAUGHING at Angelina JOLIE in the TOMB RAIDER film (because they also thought it was ABSURD for a FEMALE to have that kind of a MASCULINE ROLE).

See my comments above.

Thanks for this link as well. That "GREED is GOOD" guy was REPLUSIVE as hell, and it was also wonderful to see this scene again where PICARD puts him in his place.

I always liked Picard pontificating that they don't use money in the 24th century. As though he had never heard of Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones, the miners on Janus 6 or even the Ferengi. I'm reminded of the book "Shogun". The elite samurai had no idea how money worked and let inferior clerks work out the details. I see Starfleet officers in a similar situation.

But VOYAGER is also FULL of the same kind of SCENES with JANEWAY. And you'd also KNOW this if you weren't so busy FAST FORWARDING through them each time that you see her on screen.

---

But you are assuming that because a person is born in a certain era they are destined to remain in that mind set. I completely disagree, especially with a mind like DaVincis. In "Concerning Flight", wasn't DaVinci working in a 24th century lab?

---

No. It's not that they are DESTINED to remain in the MIND SET of their OWN ERA. SHERLOCK'S NEMESIS didn't seem to have a problem with learning about the 24th century. The PROBLEM would be the PERSONALITY of LEO which might not LIKE learning about how he's NOT HUMAN and is something that has been CREATED by someone else for their AMUSEMENT.

Because we also hear LEO complain about how he sees others in FLORENCE as being BENEATH HIM (which is also why he LEAVES FLORENCE). So imagine how he'd feel if he learns that he's been created to ENTERTAIN others. That would be a HUGE BLOW to that BIG EGO of his.

That's an interesting point, but it could also go the other way.: "If I am only a portrait, then at least I'm a portrait of a Great Man".

JANEWAY also explains to LEO how if she tried to explain to him the kind of ADVANCED TRANSPORTER TECHNOLOGY she used in front of him it would be like trying to explain it to a SPARROW that didn't have a brain developed enough to comprehend it or what she was saying about it to it.

Another example of Janeways arrogance.

This wasn't ARROGANCE on her part. It was her PROTECTING HIM from the KNOWLEDGE about himself that she felt he wasn't READY to hear (that he's merely a PLAY TOY that's been created as a way to AMUSE other humans).

If she were being ARROGANT then she'd BRAG to him about how SUPERIOR she was to him (the same way as we hear LEO BRAGGING to JANEWAY about how SUPERIOR he is to the other HOLOGRAPHIC characters he relates to there in HOLOGRAPHIC FLORENCE).

Arrogance manifests itself in different ways. To me, when someone decides that they "know better" than someone else (who is clearly intelligent) and compares them to a sparrow-that is arrogance.

Anyhow, we also don't really KNOW WHO PROGRAMS LEO to be LEO.

---

I assumed it was Janeway herself backed up by historical records. Do you think she programmed him to be less intelligent?

---

The problem is we DON'T KNOW who programmed LEO. Did some checking around but couldn't find anyone else that knew WHO or HOW he was created either.

It seems to be a hobby on Voyager to create Holodeck characters. Making Leo less intelligent than Janeway is not a stretch just as making the bartender more intelligent would also fit. That way she could feel comfortable with both.

But NO. Janeway wouldn't program LEO to be LESS INTELLIGENT. Since she programs the FAIR HAVEN character to be MORE INTELLIGENT, she'd most likely also do the same thing to LEO because she also LIKES a CHALLENGE to her EGO.

Never seen much evidence of that.

---

But we do know that he thinks he's IN AMERICA when he's NOT, and JANEWAY also explains how he needs to go back to EUROPE (which is the HOLODECK) after the PIRATES STEAL him and used him as a way to MAKE WEAPONS for them (by using THE DOC's EMITTER which they'd also STOLEN).

In other words, having the LEO program also turns out to be a DANGEROUS one when it's STOLEN and then used by the THIEVES as a way to PRODUCE the ADVANCED WEAPONS that he makes for them.

Leo can only make decisions based on the information he has. If someone sat him down and explained the situation, I'm sure they'd find him a pretty quick study.

---

Yes he's a QUICK STUDY. That's the problem. He's TOO QUICK ... just like the DOC was also TOO QUICK to use the PSYCHOLOGY INFO that he downloads.

And the RESULT was LEO ends up making ADVANCED WEAPONS for PIRATES to sell that he also ASSUMES were his PATRON (because in the MIDDLE AGES one also works for such people).

So it was like handing over a LOADED PISTOL to a BABY who proceeds to SUCK on the BARREL of it without it's knowing how DANGEROUS it was to do that.

And that's what the SPARROW explanation was all about. It was JANEWAY's attempt to explain the situation to him without INSULTING him. *And LEO was also perfectly happy with the way that she explained it to him. *> Sound like a reasonable ego to me.

OVER at the BLADE RUNNER 2049 BOARD one has ARGUED with several others about how JOI (another HOLOGRAPHIC character) deserves to be granted HUMAN STATUS like the DOC and DATA have.

Haven't seen 2049 yet,, so I'll avoid that discussion.

SO NO.

It's not just IF they EARN IT. It's because sometimes they can also BEHAVE MORE HUMAN than HUMANS do. So it's also a matter of ETHICS and THE DOC had also EARNED it by showing the kind of EMPATHY he does.

And that also ILLUSTRATES how he's just as HUMAN as the rest of them due to his having the same kind of EMPATHY.

The POINT is LEO hasn't reached the point where he DESERVES to have the same kind of a HEARING to be GRANTED the SAME KIND of LEGAL STATUS as DATA and THE DOC.

So isn't SELF AWARENESS also the POINT and a part of being HUMAN.

I'm beginning to see your point. But I have to disagree with the ethics behind it. A "being" can be considered human only if it is aware and has empathy. Is a person in a coma human? What about new born babies? And if they are human even though they fail the tests of empathy and awareness , what about the people created on the holodecks? All they need is training and instruction and they can be as fully functioning as the Doctor.

And since those in FAIR HAVEN ended up being AWARE of WHAT they were (which LEO isn't), then YES those characters would probably also reach the point where they might also request to have the same status. But unfortunately the TV VIEWER also complained about there being too many HOLOGRAPHIC episodes (which also distracts and takes one away from life in the 24th century).

So therefore we never got the chance to see any of those in FAIR HAVEN advance to having HUMAN STATUS.

My ongoing complaint about the writing. It would have been fun to see them at the reunion party.

Not that I'm all that much in favor of such things:

https://youtu.be/TRzBk_KuIaM

https://youtu.be/2eVR0i5YAv0

@Invidia said:

@Tim-Buktu

Capt. Janeway was arrogant. She says so herself.

---

Yes, but THE DOC and SEVEN and LEONARDO and several other characters were also ARROGANT as well, yet YOU SINGLE OUT JANEWAY for some reason and NOT the others, when at least one or MORE of them was were EVEN MORE ARROGANT than she was.

WHY???

---

YOU again:

Kirk, Seven and DaVinci were also arrogant. (Surprisingly Be'Lanna Torres, an angry Klingon engineer, never struck me that way.) I included the excerpts of Susan Ivanova as examples of good writing of strong female leaders. There are many others.

---

IVANOVA was a STRONG character. SO was JANEWAY. And, imo, the WRITING for BOTH characters was also GOOD (NOT BAD like you claim is the case without even being WILLING to WATCH the parts of the show with JANEWAY in it).

WHY???

What it is about JANEWAY's character that THREATENS you???

Because whenever we encounter someone or something that TRIGGERS the kind of a REACTION that you keep having, then chances are also pretty good that it involves something else about our SHADOW SELVES.

Because those we LOVE and those we HATE also tend to be REFLECTIONS of ourselves. And whenever we encounter something or someone that we HATE (the way you seem to do in the case of JANEWAY), chances are also pretty good that whatever we see being REFLECTED is something that we also DENY in ourselves.

---

YOU:

Don't misunderstand me. It's not Janeway herself that bothers me. It's the writing. I've seen this happen with many female leads. I feel as though the writers said "let's put boobs on Kirk" and let it go at that.

---

Here's some QUOTES from BOTH the WRITERS and from KATE (who plays JANEWAY) that were also SAID EVEN BEFORE she played the PART of JANEWAY:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kathryn_Janeway

Executive Producer Rick Berman explained, (The First Captain: Bujold", VOY Season 1 DVD special features)

We didn't want to just create a captain and cast it with a female. We wanted to create a female captain who was a captain that was somewhat more nurturing and a little bit less swashbuckling than someone like Captain Kirk, a little bit less sullen than someone like Captain Sisko, and a little bit more approachable than Captain Picard."

AS YOU CAN SEE ...

this NURTURING remark also BACKS UP what's already been SAID here about JANEWAY'S CHARACTER even before one found this QUOTE from the EXECUTIVE PRODUCER of the show.

No-one at the studio knew if the viewers – who were well known as predominantly male, aged twenty-five to forty-five – would accept the idea. However, the choice of a female captain had a significant advantage, as it would eliminate the problem of fans comparing the new captain to Captains Kirk and Picard.

This is also the reason why one SUSPECTS you might REJECT JANEWAY, whereas you accept SUSAN who was also NOT the CAPTAIN or the COMMANDER in MOST of B5 story.

Shortly after casting the part, Taylor remarked, "We are going to see that she interacts much more easily on a social level with the crew in a way that Picard never did." (Captains' Logs Supplemental - The Unauthorized Guide to the New Trek Voyages)

AGAIN ... this remark also BACKS UP what was said to you previously even before one had FOUND this and seen it.

Mulgrew had commented, "Captain Kathryn Janeway is the quintessential woman of the future...both commanding and discerning in her warmth; she's authoritative while remaining accessible. Beneath her extraordinary control runs a very deep vein of vulnerability and sensitivity that I look forward to exploring in seasons to come."

So even BEFORE she plays the part of JANEWAY, KATE KNEW her job was to be BOTH ARROGANT or COMMANDING and AUTHORITATIVE (which are also other words for it), and WARM or COMPASSIONATE at the SAME TIME (whereas PICARD was NOT). Yet you continue to HOLD her MASCULINE PERSONALITY TRAITS against her whereas you're willing to over look the SAME COMMANDING and AUTHORITATIVE TRAITS in PICARD and KIRK or in IVANOVA (who also WAS NOT the COMMANDER of the SPACE STATION in B5).

Due to the female gender of Voyager's captain, depicting the character was a balancing act; the captain's feminine qualities, her nurturing and emotional aspects, had to be maintained while also making the character tough enough that she was believable as a Starfleet captain.

Concerning the plausibility of the character's toughness, Rick Berman stated, "It's not really all that true with a somewhat diminutive woman like Kate Mulgrew. Those are problems that we find enjoyable to work with and to overcome." (Star Trek: Voyager - A Vision of the Future, p. 159)

Berman was ultimately pleased with how Mulgrew sought this balance. He recalled, "Kate, I think, remarkably deliver[ed] a feminine nurturing side and at the same time, a sense of strength and confidence. And that's just what we were looking for and I think that we've gotten it in spades." (Star Trek: Voyager Companion)

Perhaps this issue could also be what bothers you??? The way she's so PETITE in stature??? So you also find the character not plausible for that reason (just like the MALES in the other country laughed at ANGELINA JOLIE's character in TOMB RAIDER)???

Whatever the case may be, my position still remains the same.

Imo, JANEWAY is still MY FAVORITE STAR FLEET CAPTAIN, because her CHARACTER is a much more WELL ROUNDED one who portrays BOTH a FEMININE or NURTURING and COMPASSIONATE SIDE and A MASCULINE or TOUGH COMMANDING and ARROGANT SIDE whereas the other CAPTAINS did not.

Putting BOOBS on KIRK also isn't the ISSUE here. This isn't a PHYSICAL MATTER. It's a PSYCHOLOGICAL matter.

In the GENDER LECTURE SERIES (the END of LECTURE NUMBER 7 or 8) the PROFESSOR also explains how he was MOTHERED by his FATHER and FATHERED by his MOTHER.

In other words, his father used the TENDER NUTURING SIDE of his personality as a way to relate to him, whereas his MOTHER used the TOUGHER more COMMANDING SIDE of her personality when she related to him.

See the difference here??? This GENDER ISSUE is NOT about BODY PARTS.

But you also keep falling into the TRAP of seeing things from that mistaken kind of a PERSPECTIVE.

Will be back later to reply to the rest of what's been said.

To be continued.

---

BACK AGAIN ....

YOU AGAIN:

I always liked Picard pontificating that they don't use money in the 24th century. As though he had never heard of Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones, the miners on Janus 6 or even the Ferengi. I'm reminded of the book "Shogun". The elite samurai had no idea how money worked and let inferior clerks work out the details. I see Starfleet officers in a similar situation.

SHOGUN was a GOOD story and PICARD was a GOOD CAPTAIN, but JANEWAY still remains my FAVORITE CAPTAIN due to the way we see her DISPLAY her MOTHERING or NUTURING SKILLS which PICARD also had problems with (hence the reason why he didn't LIKE being around CHILDREN).

That's an interesting point, but it could also go the other way.: "If I am only a portrait, then at least I'm a portrait of a Great Man".

Maybe, but JANEWAY also decides it's NOT the TIME to REVEAL to him what it was that he really was, and she probably also made the right choice, because a BLOW like that to one's EGO is also something that should handled in a DELICATE MANNER (the same way as one does when one tells a child they've been ADOPTED).

One also needs to KEEP in MIND how LEO's conception of himself is based upon the idea that GOD created him (with the POPE also being the SPOKESPERSON of that GOD).

So IF JANEWAY were to explain to him that he's been created BY MAN, does that also mean LEO has NO SOUL???

And if he thinks he has NO SOUL, would that also mean he'd assume those who created him weren't MEN but were DEMONS who simply claim to be MEN???

See the problem here?

LEO's got an entirely different PERSPECTIVE than the one that we currently have here in the US where we believe in the SEPARATION of CHURCH and STATE.

Arrogance manifests itself in different ways. To me, when someone decides that they "know better" than someone else (who is clearly intelligent) and compares them to a sparrow-that is arrogance.

You wouldn't even REALIZE she made this remark without it being pointed out to you because you are too BUSY FAST FORWARDING through scenes with JANEWAY in them. And that's also ARROGANT to try to describe a scene as being ARROGANT when you're NOT even willing to WATCH IT.

In order to have any kind of VALIDITY to what you say, you at least need to SEE the scene.

But even then one also gets the feeling that's not going to CHANGE your PERSPECTIVE (due to something else that seems to be HIDING there inside of YOUR SHADOW SELF).

The GENDER PROFESSOR also points out how this OTHER HIDDEN SIDE of us tends to become a more DOMINANT part of us later on in life ... like after the end of MIDDLE AGE in our 40's ... or even into our 60's. But it can also appear when we're still only 19 or 20.

So perhaps that's also the REAL ISSUE here??? Watching JANEWAY WAKES UP a part of you that you've had HIDDEN from VIEW???

it seems to be a hobby on Voyager to create Holodeck characters. Making Leo less intelligent than Janeway is not a stretch just as making the bartender more intelligent would also fit. That way she could feel comfortable with both.

FOUND THIS which also seems to CONFIRM your SUSPICION is right about JANEWAY being the one who CREATED LEO:

The script of "Scorpion" included a short deleted scene in which Janeway referred to the holoprogram depicting Leonardo da Vinci and his workshop as "Janeway seven".

Janeway ...

year of the voyage home and later

recreated Leonardo da Vinci's workshop, casting herself as the inventor's apprentice.

MAKING HERSELF HIS SUBORDINATE or his APPRENTICE also DISPROVES your claim that she wants his character to be LESS INTELLIGENT than she is.

In FACT she also keeps going to him ASKING HIM for his HELP.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci_(hologram)

Leonardo counseled the captain that everything is a matter of interpretation and perspective

DATA and THE DOC also went to LEO for his help as well.

In an unused story draft that was named Star Trek: Renaissance and was penned during the writing of Star Trek: First Contact, Leonardo da Vinci signed Data on as his apprentice. (Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, 3rd ed., p. 322) The revered inventor eventually became friends with Data, a relationship that resulted in Leonardo arriving at one of his great insights, then adding a drawing of the android to his notebooks. (Star Trek: First Contact, hardback ed., p. 255) A holographic simulation of Leonardo was among the historical personality profiles studied by The Doctor, in 2373, during his attempt to expand his personality subroutines. By 2377, The Doctor was declaring himself an expert on da Vinci amongst other Alpha Quadrant artists. (VOY: "Darkling", "Flesh and Blood") Kathryn Janeway of the USS Voyager enjoyed visiting the holographic Leonardo on the holodeck. (VOY: "Scorpion", "The Raven", "Scientific Method", "Concerning Flight", "The Omega Directive") In her later years as captain of the USS Voyager, Janeway kept a copy of Leonardo's famous self-portrait in red chalk in her ready room. (VOY: "Virtuoso", "The Haunting of Deck Twelve", "Unimatrix Zero", "Endgame")

And it's also INTERESTING how BOTH YOU and JANEWAY were attracted to the SAME CHARACTER.

And there's also THIS OTHER MATTER as well:

Frequently in Star Trek: Voyager and elsewhere, characters such as Captain Janeway refer to Leonardo da Vinci as simply "da Vinci". This is an inaccuracy, because "da Vinci" is not a surname at all; It simply means "of Vinci" or "from Vinci" (Leonardo's home town) and refers only to where Leonardo was from. As Leonardo was never known to have used a surname in the modern sense, only "Leonardo da Vinci" or "Leonardo" are the correct names to use for him.

It seems to be a hobby on Voyager to create Holodeck characters. Making Leo less intelligent than Janeway is not a stretch just as making the bartender more intelligent would also fit. That way she could feel comfortable with both.

Sorry but there's just NOTHING whatsoever happening in the story to back up this kind of CLAIM you make, because MAKING herself HIS APPRENTICE is also EVIDENCE of this.

I'm beginning to see your point. But I have to disagree with the ethics behind it. A "being" can be considered human only if it is aware and has empathy. Is a person in a coma human? What about new born babies? And if they are human even though they fail the tests of empathy and awareness , what about the people created on the holodecks? All they need is training and instruction and they can be as fully functioning as the Doctor.

Legally SPEAKING, here in the US, our PERSONHOOD STATUS begins at BIRTH. Otherwise there could also be several LAW SUITS where others would SUE other people for the MURDER of their UNBORN OFFSPRING (such as in the case of a TRAFFIC ACCIDENT).

If a person in a COMA has no BRAIN WAVE FUNCTION, legally they also declare them to be BRAIN DEAD (which also allows the family to UNPLUG them).

They need MORE than just TRAINING and INSTRUCTION. They also need GUIDANCE and EXPERIENCE (which THE DOC was also LACKING when he tried to use the PSYCHOLOGICAL SKILLS he'd DOWNLOADED on SEVEN ... which leads to the SUICIDE of the other guy who was FALSELY ACCUSED of attacking SEVEN when he had not).

And that's the problem.

The HOLOGRAPHIC CHARACTERS are LOCATED on a SHIP where others are too busy trying to find a way home to have enough time to DEVOTE to them to give them the kind of NURTURING they'd need.

PLUS the writers also ran into the other problem where VIEWERS of the show no longer had interest in the HOLODECK characters anymore (who also took one OUT of the 24TH CENTURY and into another different TIME FRAME).

And the MAIN REASON the VIEWERS tuned in each week was to watch what was happening in THE 24TH CENTURY (not watch what was going on in the 15th or 16th Century or what was happening in some other more primitive TIME where people still lived in a town like FAIR HAVEN).

So that was the END of that and we never got to see anymore of the HOLOGRAPHIC FAIR HAVEN characters.

In BLADE RUNNER 2049 one can BUY a HOLOGRAPHIC PROGRAM who will keep you company and be your COMPANION.

Here's a CLIP of the HOLOGRAPHIC character called JOI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=EZYBs3jR6x4

And another where it concludes the reasons why JOI is MORE HUMAN than HUMAN:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw3BQgY8fBk

But others over at the 2049 BOARD also still refuse to see this and claim she's nothing more than a PLAY TOY (like LEO).

Haven't see the LINKS yet ... will be back later to comment upon them ... if there's something one thinks should be said about them.

BACK AGAIN ...

Checked out your links ...

Perhaps it will sooth you to know there's NO WAY anyone could ever talk me into doing what happened in the MIGRAM experiment???

Once when late to a SOCIOLOGY class the professor and the rest of the class also tried to TRICK ME into saying that one line was LONGER than the other one that had already been drawn upon the BLACK BOARD.

But regardless of their EFFORTS, they NEVER did convince me to go against my own judgement.

Here's still another FUN TRICK for you.

Put your fingers together so that they INTERLACE with the fingers on your other hand and then tell me which one of your THUMBS (left or right one) lays on top of the other one.

As for the ROBOT that has been given CITIZENSHIP STATUS in SAUDIA ARABIA ...

one also has to WONDER WHY she's not also WEARING that CLOTHING they FORCE other MUSLIM women to wear ...

so that the MALES are able to CONTROL their SEXUAL URGRES by NOT seeing any of the exposed parts of a FEMALE BODY .

Is the reason why she not wearing that CLOTHING because that FEMALE ROBOT is also NOT a MUSLIM???

Because as a CITIZEN one would also assume the SAME RULES that apply to other FEMALES in that SOCIETY should also APPLY to the FEMALE ROBOT as well.

Anyhow, the JOI character in 2049 is also much more FUN and ENTERTAINING to be around than these other ROBOTS in your videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGSu7uMpxME

JOI serves K a FAKE STEAK DINNER/ changes clothes & hair colors/holds HOLOGRAPHIC copy of the PALE FIRE BOOK/ and makes LOVE to K with the help of another GIRL, etc.

Wow

Just wow

I must have really touched a nerve. It sounds like you are deeply immersed in Psychology Today.

You and I disagree on Janeway. I don't like the way her character is written. As to why I don't watch her scenes? Life is too short to put myself through them. This has nothing to do with females in leadership. The fact that this is your go to says more about you than me. I like strong female characters. Janeway wasn't one of them.

But you sound upset. I'll go away.

@Invidia said:

Wow Just wow I must have really touched a nerve. It sounds like you are deeply immersed in Psychology Today.

THE PROFESSOR teaching the GENDER COURSE has his PHD and had also had a FAMILY THERAPY PRACTICE for many years.

So the reference to being IMMERSED in PSYCHOLOGY TODAY is also a CHEAP SHOT being directed at HIM (not me), because what's been said is BASED UPON what HE'S SAID about the SHADOW SELF in those GENDER LECTURES.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from:

https://youtu.be/BlGSG0q-Fh4

https://youtu.be/E7RAlk5JEKc

https://youtu.be/snru8ZSfmkg

All one can do is try to EXPLAIN to you the REASONS why one DISAGREES with it, and thinks what you've said about her character is WRONG.

As to why I don't watch her scenes? Life is too short to put myself through them. This has nothing to do with females in leadership. The fact that this is your go to says more about you than me. I like strong female characters. Janeway wasn't one of them. But you sound upset. I'll go away.

The SMILE face at the end of the last message is THE RELAXED FACE.

: relaxed : calm blue waters, calm blue waters, calm blue waters, calm blue waters,

No one is UPSET (at least not me) and there's no reason to GO AWAY (at least not on MY part).

My going away was temporary. You did seem upset.

All one tried to do is find out if what the WRITERS/ CREATORS of the show SAID applies to you or not.

No-one at the studio knew if the viewers – who were well known as predominantly male, aged twenty-five to forty-five – would accept the idea. However, the choice of a female captain had a significant advantage, as it would eliminate the problem of fans comparing the new captain to Captains Kirk and Picard.

Because they also said they were aware that having a FEMALE CAPTAIN could be a PROBLEM for their MOSTLY MALE audience.

Hmmm.... I DO NOT fit into that demographic

How about the episode where the VIRUS attacks everyone on the SHIP and only JANEWAY is left to FIGHT IT???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-kvYo-taD4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=2F5ZKUy2f_U

Have you seen it???

OK the problem there was the big honkin' viruses. It felt like Dr.Who

She KICKS BUTT BIGTIME in that eppy.

I agree. And I did not fast forward.

And IVANOVA also simply BARKS ORDERS at others in those other B5 clips, whereas JANEWAY actually PHYSICALLY demonstrates her STRENGTH in these other VOYAGER CLIPS where she FIGHTS with the VIRUS.

I do need to point out that Ivanova was the commander of both Babylon 5 and later the White Star fleet. A little more important than a starship captain I think.

So the DIMINUTIVE looking JANEWAY was also PLENTY STRONG.

And that's also still another reason why one disagrees with YOUR OPINION of her character and thinks YOUR WRONG about what you keep saying about her.

But as long as you're also still NOT WILLING to even WATCH the scenes with her in them, that also doesn't give what your saying about her ANY kind of VALIDITY at all.

Once again, I do not NOT watch Janeway. I've seen enough of Star Trek in all of its many forms to know when someone is going on a rant. That is when I fast forward.

And here's another CLIP where IVANOVA also SCREWS UP and also ends up KNOCKED down onto the FLOOR as a result of her SCREW UP:

Like I haven't seen that in Star Trek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=128&v=AcBTOU7RvbU

And CONGRATULATIONS to you for also having the LONGEST topic here at the VOYAGER board.

My manly manliness insists that it must continue.

Because in the first video the young girl (who also reminds one of SARA PALIN who can see RUSSIA from her house) is talking about GENDER STUDIES which also isn't RELATED to THE PSYCHOLOGY of GENDER course.

You do realize that a person CAN see Russia from Alaska? But for a skilled debater (which I am not) to use that sort of technique. as in: she must be wrong because she looks like a politician is beneath you.

So what the VIDEO indicates is you don't UNDERSTAND what the PSYCHOLOGY course is about, or how it RELATES to what the WRITERS/PRODUCERS/CREATORS of VOYAGER are saying in those QUOTES.

I will grant you that I don't understand the course you took. (Just one course right?)

The MAIN ISSUE here is JANEWAY is the only WELL ROUNDED and BALANCED CAPTAIN that we've been given in the STAR TREK UNIVERSE.

I have given this some thought and I think I see our differences. Star Trek tends to create over the top cardboard characters. I could probably accept the Janeway that you see in your minds eye. The problem is that is not what I see on the screen. As far as I'm concerned she might as well have two signs saying "masculine and feminine" that she holds up. This is all about the writing. And as I have said, there have been good strong female characters on TV. Not many but they do exist.

That YOUNG GIRL in the video TELLS ME NOTHING other than the FACT that you're CONFUSED about how her GENDER COURSE isn't RELATED to the other COURSE called THE PSYCHOLOGY of GENDER.

You are correct to me they seemed the same.

There's also another PSYCHOLOGICAL TERM called PROJECTION where one thinks someone else feels the way they themselves are feeling.

In other words, when you say it seems like someone else is UPSET ... it can be because YOU yourself felt that way ... (which is also made evident by the "WOW" and the rest of what you said ...

You gave me a three page lecture on the psychology of gender, WITH A LOT OF CAPS. What was I supposed to think?

when it was suggested to you that something about JANEWAY'S character MIGHT have TRIGGERED something inside of you that makes you REPLUSED by her for some reason).

I have never been REPLUSED in my life.

DEBATES like this can be FUN.

I agree. But I've also been in debates where people get angry. (Hint: you know you're winning when they call you a poopy-head.)

And YES IVANOVA was in COMMAND at certain times in the show, but she was also NOT THE MAIN PERSON in command during MOST of the show. Because another character who was also a MALE had that ROLE.

So rising through the ranks is a bad thing?

And in the CLIP you've been given the IRONY of that situation is how SUSAN BERATES the other PILOT for NOT LISTENING or PAYING CLOSE ENOUGH ATTENTION to what she told him, whereas she's doing the EXACT SAME THING in this other scene as she BERATED the other pilot for in the other scene.

In other words, she's not really LISTENING or PAYING CLOSE ENOUGH ATTENTION to what these other characters are telling her either (which is also the reason why she ends up KNOCKED DOWN on the floor).

If you're talking about "Purple/Green, she was trying to understand and resolve a conflict and got caught in a mob riot. Are you saying Janeway never made a mistake in resolving conflicts?

Does YOUR MANLINESS also indicate you're a MALE???

What? Sure why not.

Because another point of the PSYCHOLOGY of GENDER COURSE is how the BODY PARTS that one has also don't DETERMINE which PERSONALITY TRAIT is the MOST DOMINANT one.

And that's also the reason why the PROFESSOR says he was MOTHERED by his FATHER and FATHERED by his MOTHER.

Which is another way of saying his FATHER was more NURTURING with him than his mother who mostly displayed her TOUGHER more MASCULINE SIDE with him.

And that also explains the reason why his FATHER was ATTRACTED to his MOTHER.

Because we also tend to be ATTRACTED to people who have the MORE DOMINANT or OPPOSITE PERSONALITY TRAITS, which then enables us to ABSORB some of them from them.

This is confusing. Body parts determine your personality traits. Your professors father presumably had male body parts and therefore was feminine. Is that right?

Do people still worry about which gender they're attracted to?

So now that you've read what the WRITERS/PRODUCERS/CREATORS said, is any of this making any better sense to you than before when this stuff was first posted here to this topic way back on PAGE ONE???

Oh I understood from the beginning. Do you understand my premise:The writers are BAD at their job.

And in the BOOK of THOMAS (VERSE 114) JESUS also says the same thing as well.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm

114) Simon Peter said to Him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of Life." Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

And in VERSE 22 he's also saying the same kind of thing:

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter [the Kingdom]."

Because making the MALE part of you more FEMALE and the FEMALE part of you MORE MALE also means you end up being a MORE BALANCED person.

I'm sorry but unless you're quoting the actual bible then I don't see any authority in statements said to have come from Jesus.

So what do you think LEO would think if he's told he's a MAN MADE CREATION and hasn't been created by GOD???

How do you think he'd feel if he's also made AWARE that he has NO SOUL???

So neither the Doctor or Data have souls? I don't mind that much. This is science fiction. They can make up anything they want.

Because in his view isn't a SOUL something his GOD gave him?? Star Trek seems to treat all religions as some sort of magic trick with a logical explanation. There it is.

Humor

When I was checking out "Purple/Green I typed in Red Green

https://youtu.be/1I3pSZGCuHA

And the MAIN MESSAGE in that video also seems to be her having a COMPLAINT about the courses she took because she didn't feel the professor had been FAIR to her whenever she tried to discuss her OWN VIEWS (which she also says at the end of the video were CONSERVATIVE).

Well now, we wouldn't want a CONSERVATIVE to have an opinion now would we

By the way, I see you didn't comment on Ms Palins eyesight.

So what most likely happened was this girl was being DISRUPTIVE, and kept trying to take whatever subject the professor planned to lecture about OFF TOPIC. Because one has also encountered this type of a SELF RIGHTEOUS student before, and they also tend to behave the same way as an ILL MANNERED TODDLER would on a plane, or if one takes them with them to a grocery store where they have a TEMPER TANTRUM and DEMAND that their caregiver buy them the CANDY or the TOY that they see and want.

You have an amazing ability to see things that aren't there.

Did you even WATCH the video? The screaming ill mannered toddlers were the rest of the class. This young woman has an opinion that differs from the rest of the class and is shot down. Where exactly did you see her as being demanding. Maybe she thought the class should follow the syllabus instead of complaining about how hard their lives are.

Calm reasonable Liberal students:

https://youtu.be/fBas9IbTlxM

So instead of posting a VIDEO, why not just explain whatever the POINT it is that you have, instead of assuming that whatever someone is saying in a video expresses whatever it is you're trying to say.

If you insist

I'm sure you are very proud of your PSYCHOLOGY OF GENDER class you took. Hopefully you met many new friends. But the class itself AS YOU DESCRIBE IT sounds like a nonsensical waste of time.

To say that there are male and female traits such as leadership or compassion and to say that a man is female because he is gentle or a woman is male because she is strong feels positively sexist. I hope that clears up my point of view.

But further, none of your PSYCHOLOGY OF GENDER has anything to do with Captain Janeway. You think the character is well written, you're wrong. (Sorry I meant to say "I disagree with your point.)

OVER the TOP CARDBOARD characters are what we see in that VIDEO where they have CAROL portraying CAPT KIRK with a set of BOOBS. The entire situation is giving us STEREOTYPED women who's MAIN INTERST is in their APPEARANCE and in SHOPPING.

I apologize. That was meant to be humorous.

On the contrary, she's a WELL ROUNDED character who has a BALANCE of BOTH MASCULINE and FEMININE PERSONALITY TRAITS (which both KIRK and PICARD did NOT HAVE).

All Starfleet captains are cardboard cutouts.

So maybe the reason why you don't see the BALANCE of BOTH TRAITS in JANEWAY is most likely because you also OPERATE mostly from a more DOMINANT MASCULINE SIDE???

The remark you made about coming back to continue the discussion again was definitely an illustration that you have a MASCULINE SIDE.

I find it interesting that you still can't tell. Here's a hint brothers.

Did you read what the WRITERS/PRODUCERS/CREATORS of the show said???

It's their baby. What are they going to say?

Being STRONG is also an expression of having MASCULINE ENERGY and JANEWAY also does that when she FIGHTS with that LIFESIZED VIRUS that attacks her. When did we ever see SUSAN IVANOVA do anything like this?>

So having strong leadership abilities and avoiding combat is feminine while stomping down the hallway in a muscle shirt carrying a honkin' big gun is how you see being masculine?

You gave me a three page lecture on the psychology of gender, WITH A LOT OF CAPS. What was I supposed to think?

As you can see, The NOTES are not 3 PAGES in length:

In this one I had to scroll down 12 times to get to the bottom.

SOME CLASS **LECTURE NOTES on THE PSYCHOLOGY of GENDE

Like I said, I hope you enjoyed the class.

If you're talking about "Purple/Green, she was trying to understand and resolve a conflict and got caught in a mob riot. Are you saying Janeway never made a mistake in resolving conflicts?

We ALL MAKE MISTAKES.

JANEWAY also made the MISTAKE of NOT LISTENING to what the guy told her when he said he was INNOCENT and had NOT STOLEN NANOPROBES from SEVEN the way SEVEN and the DOC said he had (after the DOC downloads the PSYCHOLOGY course). And that also leads to the SUICIDE of the other guy. And when the DOC asked JANEWAY to DELETE the other programs and put him back to being the way he use to be, JANEWAY also REFUSED and explains how what had happened was also HER FAULT as well.

Ever hear of a STAY AT HOME DAD who takes care of the KIDS while the WIFE works?

My nephew is a stay at home dad and he is in no sense of the word feminine.

Do you understand my premise: The writers are BAD at their job.

ONE UNDERSTANDS the reason why you think that's the case.

Do you UNDERSTAND the reasons why one DISAGREES with you???

What I don't understand is the constant use of "one" to describe yourself, It may have been socially correct 100 years ago but today it just sounds pretentious. And in fact makes you sound more immature than you probably are. Rather like the 18 year old boy who takes to smoking a pipe to look more adult.

Sorry but it's starting to grate on me.

I'm sorry but unless you're quoting the actual bible then I don't see any authority in statements said to have come from Jesus.

Since THE BOOK of THOMAS was NOT available to them at the TIME when they (ALL MEN) decided which BOOKS would be in the BIBLE, how could they have INCLUDED this book in it???

The BOOK of THOMAS wasn't found until RECENTLY. And Several other books were also found as well.

I've reviewed this. Most legitimate bible scholars do not accept these writings. Neither do I.

So neither the Doctor or Data have souls? I don't mind that much. This is science fiction. They can make up anything they want.

When they granted THE DOC and DATA the SAME LEGAL STATUS as other humans had, didn't they also decide that they DID HAVE SOULS???

Or is GOD the only being who can establish that kind of thing???

Uh** YEAH!!! **>

Because DATA also had that HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGE of TASHA (which was also a MAJOR FACTOR in the reason why it was decided to give DATA the same STATUS as a HUMAN)???

This SOUL issue is something that was introduced in BLADE RUNNER 2049 where the BOSS of K told him he wasn't HUMAN because he HAD NO SOUL.

There is a difference between having a soul and having human rights. No one can vote on somebody else having a soul. However if a machine is sufficiently complex it can mimic personality enough to give the impression it has a soul. Does the Doctor have a soul? No one knows, that is between him and his makers Maker.

And that's also the reason why one disagrees with your claim that the WRITERS did a BAD JOB when they created her character.

Not create develop.

Palin's EYESIGHT??? She could see Russia. Much like some people in Texas can see Mexico or Minnesotans can see Canada. Terrible for her to say something that stupid.

The POINT is the YOUNG GIRL in that VIDEO RAMBLES on and on without the person who views the VIDEO knowing WHY she's doing it or WTF she's talking about (because she also doesn't inform anyone that her views are CONSERVATIVE until the VERY LAST SENTENCE at the end of the VIDEO).

To be clear, are we talking about this?:

https://youtu.be/BlGSG0q-Fh4

I found her clear and straight forward

The girl in the 2nd VIDEO also does the SAME THING (RAMBLES) and ADMITS it when she says this:

She says "It's 2:30 in the morning and I'm tired" Cut her some slack. By the way Lauren Southern is very smart. You should look into her posts.

This is EXTREMELY DISORGANIZED like my THOUGHT process.

In other words,

You made no effort to try to understand>

Otherwise, you also LOOK and SOUND VERY SILLY trying to DISCUSS something that you KNOW NOTHING about yet.

I agree

(that was sarcasm)

But YOU don't have that problem, which is also why one doesn't understand WHY you think that girl has something in COMMON with you.

Thank you.....I think.

And you also don't have a CLOSED OFF MIND like she has either.

Believe it or not, I am really trying to understand your point of view.

simply WATCHED it ON TV ...

because it was also a TELECOURSE that aired on one of the LOCAL PBS stations.

Wait! What? You are basing this entire discussion on what is basically a TED Talk?

So what the PROFESSOR said also ENABLES one to BETTER UNDERSTAND and APPRECIATE what's happening in other FILMS and TV SHOWS (which is also the reason why one introduced the course to you in hopes that doing so would also enable you to better appreciate the character JANEWAY).

OK I actually understand that.

The problem as I see it is that One is limiting herself(?) to one line of thinking.

This DUALITY of MIND ISSUE is also nothing NEW.

There are many versions of Duality of mind: good and evil, calm and active, yin and yang etc. This video you watched chose to use male and female. This can be disruptive because there are very real males and females in the world many of them that would take exception to being labeled as a "type" myself included

So the problem isn't BAD WRITING.

It's a PERCEPTION ISSUE.

One where the person making the claim isn't aware of the reason why the claim they've made isn't a VALID one to have made (due to the lack of AWARENESS they have concerning what the writers/producers/creators were doing when they created the JANEWAY character).

Are you saying that I am not aware of what I consider bad writing?

My nephew is a stay at home dad and he is in no sense of the word feminine.

NO ONE is saying he's FEMININE. What was all that about "he was mothered by his father and fathered by his mother" about then?

What he does as a STAY AT HOME DAD is express his NURTURING FEMININE PERSONALITY TRAIT (which is usually also something that's UNDEVELOPED in most MALES).

FEMININE TRAITS are just another way to describe one's SOFTER more TENDER SIDE.

SEXIST

I don't understand is the constant use of "one" to describe yourself, It may have been socially correct 100 years ago but today it just sounds pretentious. And in fact makes you sound more immature than you probably are. Rather like the 18 year old boy who takes to smoking a pipe to look more adult. Sorry but it's starting to grate on me.

The use of the word "ONE" is an effort to keep things from getting TOO PERSONAL.

Because discussions where one says I think this and I think that or says YOU this or YOU that instead of saying one feels this way or that way also tend to lead to more ARGUMENTS and MISUNDERSTANDINGS for some reason.

Sorry to hear you don't like the style or the effort being used to try to keep things on a more IMPERSONAL level.

So as it fails in its purpose, one would think one would stop using that style

One where the person making the claim isn't aware of the reason why the claim they've made isn't a VALID one to have made (due to the lack of AWARENESS they have concerning what the writers/producers/creators were doing when they created the JANEWAY character).

YOU aren't AWARE of the reason why the CLAIM YOU MADE isn't a VALID ONE (due to the LACK of AWARENESS YOU HAVE in regards to what the WRITERS/PRODUCERS/CREATORS were doing when they created JANEWAY).

See the difference???

Ah.. no. The sentences you chose are so convoluted that after a third reading I don't know what you're saying.

Isn't the use of the FIRST SENTENCE also a much more DIPLOMATIC way to put it ???

Do you want to be diplomatic or do you want to make sense?

The ATTEMPT was definitely to AVOID the creation of any ANNOYANCE on your part and not to CREATE it.

FAIL!

ME:

And that's also the reason why one disagrees with your claim that the WRITERS did a BAD JOB when they created her character.

YOU:

Not create develop.

When they CREATED the JANEWAY character they did it so that she would be PORTRAYED as being a much MORE WELL ROUNDED CHARACTER than PICARD or KIRK had been.

And like one of them says, they also SUCCEEDED in SPADES in their EFFORTS to do so.

A television character is a work of art. As such it is open to interpretation.

Some people think Jackson Pollock is a great artist. Other people think his stuff is a drunk with a paint can. I will allow you to have your faulty thinking on Janeway.

We didn't want to just create a captain and cast it with a female.>

Which continues the thought.

I know what they WANTED to do. And I applaud them for that. So you take a good actress with a good character and give her cartoon lines to say.

@Invidia said:

Yes that's the girl who complains that she took a GENDER COURSE and an ETHNIC STUDY COURSE at the same time and regrets it.

And so you ramble on for seven pages

And then she RAMBLES on some more about SATI, CHILD BRIDES, ARRANGED MARRIAGES ...

Do you mean the topics of the course? Maybe she wanted to learn.

This girl is definitely just as RUDE as the other girl.

Why make a VIDEO where you RIDICULE your TEACHER for NOT having TENURE ...

She was pointing out that he did not seem qualified.

one where you also begin by explaining how you were REQUIRED to take the GENDER class ...

but still label it this way:

I took a GENDER STUDIES COURSE so YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

It was a clever title.

These are the reasons why one says SHE'S GOOFY.

Because SHE IS. I'm so glad you're not judgemental.

So what is it you think she's being CLEAR and STRAIGHFORWARD about???

Are you saying you also took a GENDER COURSE and an ETHNIC STUDY course and regret doing it??? Is that the reason why you say she represents where you're COMING FROM???

My classes were Chemistry and Engineering. I can't imagine wasting my time on "gender studies"

Imo, the 2ND GIRL is also just as GOOFY as the first one, because neither one of them are making any sense. And WHY try to make a VIDEO if you're tired??? Why not WAIT and make it when your NOT TIRED???

Listening to her for almost 20 MIN was all the SLACK that one wishes to give her or WASTE on her. Life's too short to waste any more precious time listening to her RAMBLE ON about what people said in response to a question they were asked in her class.

I've seen her work she's very clever. But if you don't want to look deeper, nobodies twisting your arm.

And what the HELL is the DEBUNKED WAGE GAP that first girl with a MOUTH FULL of BRACES mentions???

Everyone with HALF a BRAIN also KNOWS WOMEN still only make about 70 CENTS for each DOLLAR that a MALE MAKES even when they also do the SAME EXACT SAME JOBS.

I agree people with half a brain still believe that. The 70cents to a dollar rule only works if you average out an entire lifetime. If you take into account women taking time out to rise a family and starting back to work in entry level jobs only then does it work out.

SOCIAL SECURITY RECORDS also PROVE THIS, due to the way WOMEN COLLECT a LOT LESS of it than MALES do (which is also due to the way they were PAID MUCH LESS than the MALES were).

Yet the little AIR HEAD also says she thinks WOMEN are doing much better than MEN CURRENTLY, and she also IGNORES the other FACT that still LESS than 100 YEARS ago (and for MOST of the REST of OUR US HISTORY) MEN also still DENIED WOMEN the right to VOTE.

Did you miss the word "CURRENTLY"?

Yet she's also suppose to be a HISTORY MAJOR???

As for the other LAME CLAIM she makes that being called the B or C WORD is the END of the WORLD ...

Yet they take men to court over such things.

Here's a FUNNY SLOGAN that was recently seen on a POSTER that a WOMAN was holding up at a RALLY on the BILL MAHER SHOW:

I'd call TRUMP a CUNT but he lacks WARMTH and DEPTH Ah very deep very funny, makes the rest of your post that much more meaningful.

In other words, the B5 WRITER that you PRAISE for having GOOD WRITING SKILLS also used the SAME KIND of ANALYTICAL PSYCHOLOGY SKILLS when he CREATED his characters as the VOYAGER writers used when they created THEIR characters.

Here's the MESSAGE where LINKS to the PSYCH COURSE were posted:

I don't know how many ways I can say this: I DON"T CARE ABOUT THE PSYCHOLOGY BEHIND THE SHOW!

Here's a link to the GENDER COURSE which includes the PROFESSOR who taught it teaching it in his classroom:

OR PSYCHOLOGY AS A TOPIC!

Are you saying that I am not aware of what I consider bad writing?

No ... what one is trying to say is the ANALYTICAL PSYCHOLOGY STUFF that was used by BOTH the B5 WRITER and by the VOYAGER WRITERS is a TOOL that one can use (if one choses to do so) to CREATE CHARACTERS.

But you also haven't really offered any EVIDENCE to back up what you're saying when you make the CLAIM that the WRITING is BAD.

So precisely WHY is bad???

Do you want me to take apart each and every show and examine each line of dialog?

That is not going to happen anymore than if I demanded you show me examples of good dialog.

I have offered a compromise by saying it is art and as such it is open to interpretation.

On the CONTRARY, it's GOOD WRITING whenever WRITERS can portray a WELL ROUNDED CHARACTER who has a BALANCE of BOTH TRAITS and isn't so LOP SIDED or ONE SIDED.

You really seem to have a problem with this.

You also said this:

If Janeway was on one of her many soul searching monologues, I would skip ahead In one episode, they had to hide all of their telepaths. (Including two Betazoids) Later in another episode Janeway complains:" What I wouldn't give to have a Betazoid on board." And that's just me remembering. Just think if somebody did some real research.

That was me referencing bad continuity.

But Unfortunately all one finds there is DIALOUGE and NO MONOLOGUES.

You might be right. Maybe Janeway is just so mind-numbingly tedious that it just seems like a monologue whenever she opens her mouth.

Funny how one can't recall having heard any JANEWAY MONOLOGUE at all in the show ...

I am beginning to question ones ability to watch a video and see what is there. Possibly one is watching a much more entertaining show.

@Invidia said:

@Tim-Buktu said:

And so you ramble on for seven pages

SEVEN PAGES???

We're only on PAGE 5 here now:

** Currently on page 5 of 5**

Another definition of page is the screen one is currently looking at. From the beginning of your entry to the end I had to scroll through 12 times.

And then she RAMBLES on some more about SATI, CHILD BRIDES, ARRANGED MARRIAGES ...

Do you mean the topics of the course? Maybe she wanted to learn.

NOTE the way she's also READING these things and is NOT saying them based upon her MEMORY of them (which also indicates she got little to NOTHING from taking the course ... due to the way she is so SELF RIGHTEOUS about her own POINT of VIEW ... and probably also wasn't willing to LISTEN to the other VIEWS).

SO NO.

Instead of being WILLING to LEARN she was too busy making up the other HOSPITAL SCENE which she says she got HECKLED FOR by the others in the class.

Also NOTE the way she NEVER tells us WHAT the others said (who she also claims HECKLED HER).

So we also don't really KNOW if they HECKELED her the way she claims they did.

And what it sounds like is she felt THREATENED by the discussions (due to the way the DISCUSSION TRIGGERS something HIDDEN inside of her SHADOW SELF), so then she begins acting like a TROLL in the class as a way to try to AVOID having the discussion.

And that's most likely also the reason why the PROFESSOR had to CUT HER OFF before she starts up still another FLAME WAR again.

In other words, she's probably also the one who wasn't BEING FAIR to the class or the professor and then PROJECTS the way she herself behaves and claims the PROFESSOR was the one who wasn't being FAIR to her.

What would be interesting is to hear what the others said who she says HECKLED HER.

Because there's also always 2 SIDES to a story like this, and we also DO NOT have their SIDE of it.

DO WE???

Good grief! Do you even listen to yourself? Without knowing the facts YOU decide she is the trouble maker she was rude she was disrespectful. The class syllabus said they were going to talk about international Women's issues. And when she had the audacity to bring it up she was heckled. If you want I can attach a number of posts reflecting the calm reasonable attitudes of SJWs. I can respect her for standing up for herself.

Why make a VIDEO where you RIDICULE your TEACHER for NOT having TENURE ...

Apparently the point is that ANYONE can teach that class

NOT having TENURE is just a CHEAP SHOT being taken by someone who has NO UNDERSTANDING of the SUBJECT or the reason why someone may not even WANT IT.

I would feel the same way if I had to waste my time on a class I didn't want.

I took a GENDER STUDIES COURSE so YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

It was a clever title.

NO it's NOT CLEVER at all

See you're wrong again.

and it's also NOT ACCURATE because it's A LIE (which she also ADMITS when she explains how SHE WAS REQUIRED to TAKE IT in order to get a HISTORY DEGREE).

I am shocked SHOCKED! that someone on the internet is not 100% accurate.

These are the reasons why one says SHE'S GOOFY.

Because SHE IS.

I'm so glad you're not judgemental.

Is being JUDGEMENTAL a BAD thing???

That's the QUESTION.

Judging without facts? Yes.

SEVEN of NINE was also that way, but didn't you also say SHE WAS MOSTLY RIGHT when she was that way???

So what is it you think she's being CLEAR and STRAIGHFORWARD about???

Are you saying you also took a GENDER COURSE and an ETHNIC STUDY course and regret doing it??? Is that the reason why you say she represents where you're COMING FROM???

My classes were Chemistry and Engineering. I can't imagine wasting my time on "gender studies"

AH HA!!!

What? Did I make a point that you understood?

But I'll slow it down for you. I have heard about gender studies classes. I investigated them. I saw these You-Tubes. I have a rational (apparently male) mind.

Who's the one who's being JUDGEMENTAL now???

Yes but I judge WITH facts.

I've seen her work she's very clever. But if you don't want to look deeper, nobodies twisting your arm.

And what the HELL is the DEBUNKED WAGE GAP that first girl with a MOUTH FULL of BRACES mentions???

Here, this might help:

https://youtu.be/Xw7FWB9M-xU

Everyone with HALF a BRAIN also KNOWS WOMEN still only make about 70 CENTS for each DOLLAR that a MALE MAKES even when they also do the SAME EXACT SAME JOBS.

I agree people with half a brain still believe that. The 70cents to a dollar rule only works if you average out an entire lifetime. If you take into account women taking time out to rise a family and starting back to work in entry level jobs only then does it work out.

SOCIAL SECURITY RECORDS also PROVE THIS, due to the way WOMEN COLLECT a LOT LESS of it than MALES do (which is also due to the way they were PAID MUCH LESS than the MALES were).

Yet the little AIR HEAD also says she thinks WOMEN are doing much better than MEN CURRENTLY, and she also IGNORES the other FACT that still LESS than 100 YEARS ago (and for MOST of the REST of OUR US HISTORY) MEN also still DENIED WOMEN the right to VOTE.

Did you miss the word "CURRENTLY"?

Just because you THINK someone who agrees with you is CLEVER or is SMART doesn't mean they are. And since you've also not said anything else to PROVE the point you've made that this BLOND chick is the way you say she is, one will assume that's also a matter of PERCEPTION (one that one also DOES NOT share with you).

And Who's the one who is BEING SEXIST now???

" that first girl with a MOUTH FULL of BRACES"

"the little AIR HEAD"

"this BLOND chick"

I think you are still winning that race

You do REALIZE that NOT EVERY FEMALE want's CHILDREN or HAS THEM don't you???

So they also have to be PAID LESS than MALES for the way other WOMEN HAVE THEM and want them simply because they're also FEMALE???

And sometimes they also HAVE KIDS even BEFORE they enter into the WORK FORCE (which also NEGATES the FALSE CLAIM you've made about LEAVING and needing to ENTER again at an ENTRY LEVEL again).

So Please also explain how WOMEN are doing BETTER CURRENTLY when they also still only make 70 CENTS for each DOLLAR MALES MAKE.

I'll slow it down again. If a woman works for seven years at $10.00 and a man works for ten years at $10.00 then at the end of ten years she will have made 70% of what he made.

As for the other LAME CLAIM she makes that being called the B or C WORD is the END of the WORLD ...

Yet they take men to court over such things.

LILY didn't take any MEN to court. She took the COMPANY that she WORKED for all her life to court.

I'm not talking about LILY. I'm talking about women who consider rude language to be the same as rape. As it is now, I'm not allowed to be alone in a room with a male co-worker.

Here's a FUNNY SLOGAN that was recently seen on a POSTER that a WOMAN was holding up at a RALLY on the BILL MAHER SHOW:

I'd call TRUMP a CUNT but he lacks WARMTH and DEPTH

Ah very deep very funny, makes the rest of your post that much more meaningful.

ON the BILL MAHER show they also had another FEMALE HOLDING up a sign that said this:

MELANIA:

HO to HO kill that JOHN in his sleep

Ah yes violence against men. How lady like

And YES is was also FUNNY like most of the rest of the stuff that BILL (and his writing staff) comes up with on his show.

Here is some more:

https://youtu.be/fB78Wqc0E-Y

So precisely WHY is bad???

I've been down this road with other people. "Show me the PROOF of your opinion" they say. Well if I looked at The Mona Lisa and said it was a bad painting then what would that prove? We could look at the same Voyager scene and have two totally different views.

You might be right. Maybe Janeway is just so mind-numbingly tedious that it just seems like a monologue whenever she opens her mouth.

BINGO!!!

You mean I said TWO things that make sense to you???

In other words, it's also a MATTER of PERCEPTION and chances are also pretty good that something is being TRIGGERED inside of you that you'd rather not FACE or deal with.

This is another problem with Psych majors. EVERYTHING has to have some deep inner meaning. I must not like Janeway because she reminds me of my father. My inner child is doing just fine thank you.

---

There was an INTERESTING EXPERIMENT where ACTORS came into a CLASS full of 2 or 300 people and STAGED a HOLD UP of the PROFESSOR.

Then other ACTORS who pretended to be COPS questioned the members of the class who were an EYE WITNESS to the ROBBERY and guess what.

NONE of them gave the same account of what they'd seen.

Some said the CROOK wore a RED SHIRT. Others said it was a BLUE shirt. But NONE of them completely agreed with the other EYE WITNESS accounts of what they'd seen happening.

I've seen this experiment a number of times. It's always funny that at the beginning even if the class is told, they still get it wrong.

So whether it's watching a VIDEO or watching what happens in REAL LIFE, PERCEPTION of what we see will also still be A PROBLEM for us due to the way that we also bring all of this other PSYCHOLOGICAL BAGGAGE along with us whenever we VIEW something.

Some people are more broken than others.

So do we at least agree about how SEVEN was MOSTLY a character who operates from the MASCULINE SIDE of her PERSONALITY???

Ah no.....This is the root of the problem . I don't accept the idea of male and female traits. They are human traits.

But even if it were true where would that take us? Would we start treating each other different based on our traits? That would turn into sexism at its worst. Why would we even be studying that?

And that JANEWAY's character also PROCEEDS to try to TAME IT (the same way as THE DOC did when he teaches her to dance, etc.)???

So her masculine side needs to be tamed?

So what's the MOTHER of the CHILD like who you said is in a relationship with the STAY at HOME NEPHEW???

That would be none of your business.

Does she FIT into the PROFILE of someone who has MOSTLY MASCULINE PERSONALITY TRAITS???

Or do you see her as being someone who has MOSTLY FEMININE PERSONALITY TRAITS???

Or maybe you also see her as being someone who has a BALANCE of BOTH TRAITS???

I don't see people that way.

Invidia: let's recap:

A student says something that you disagree with. You call her names (blonde, bimbo , screaming toddler) and compare her to a failed politician.

I disagree with some of your points and you say I'm projecting my problems.

This is then followed by several pages (sorry "screens") of you giving me a book report on your PSHYCHOLOGY OF GENDER video that you watched. I don't speak psychobabble. (Although I am fluent in guy-speak)

To be clear, I don't care about the psychology behind Voyager. I watch it to relax. I don't need to prove every statement I make. You sound very childish when you ask. But for an example, I said I investigated Gender studies on You-Tube. I also said I don't trust everything I read. You seemed to take that as some kind of victory on your part. Have you ever heard of gathering evidence? Or of testing facts? Eventually we get to a true picture of the situation. That is what I did.

Hobnobber: Thanks for your post.

This sort of thing is not really in my wheel-house and it may take me a while to plow through it but I'll give it a try.