Seriously? I have got to watch that episode. 🤔

@Knixon said:

I got to thinking again about the episode "The Savage Curtain," and how... something... the Surak character was about Spock displaying emotion. Like, "Well how could you not display emotion, when you thought you saw someone as great as ME?"

Always gives me a chuckle.

Surak

I watched the clip that wonder2wonder provided.

First off, we don't really see Spock's very first reaction to seeing Surak because the camera is on Surak's entry.

Spock's first word Surak is laced with surprise and disbelief. I say, Spock deserved some slack. Not every day does one get to see such a revered figure come back to life.

.............

Surak : the image of Surak reads in your face what is in your mind, Spock.

This prompted Spock to acknowledge the emotional reaction and to beg forgiveness.

My question is : why did Surak make a point out of Spock's emotional reaction? why not just let it be?

Let's face it Spock's reaction was to be expected. So, why embarrass Spock?

.............

Surak made a big deal about Spock's emotional reaction, but what about Surak 's?

Surak was pissed off because Spock didn't return the Live long and Proper salute straight away, that's why he embarrassed Spock.

And when Spock asked forgiveness, Surak said :

the cause was more than sufficient ...really?, so why bring it up then, you arrognant a$$hole

let us speak no further of it. How benevolent.

.............

So let me get this straight: Surak reproached Spock for his emotional slip-up, only to say 2 seconds later the cause was more than sufficient How illogical is that?

Surak's emotions got the better of him, and he didn't have a valid excuse like poor Spock did.

@sunshine62 said:

I watched the clip that wonder2wonder provided.

First off, we don't really see Spock's very first reaction to seeing Surak because the camera is on Surak's entry.

Spock's first word Surak is laced with surprise and disbelief. I say, Spock deserved some slack. Not every day does one get to see such a revered figure come back to life.

.............

Surak : the image of Surak reads in your face what is in your mind, Spock.

This prompted Spock to acknowledge the emotional reaction and to beg for forgiveness.

My question is : why did Surak make a point out of Spock's emotional reaction? why not just let it be?

Let's face it Spock's reaction was to be expected. So, why embarrass Spock?

.............

Surak made a big deal about Spock's emotional reaction, but what about Surak 's?

Surak was pissed off because Spock didn't return the Live long and Proper salute straight away, that's why he embarrassed Spock.

And when Spock asked forgiveness, Surak said :

the cause was more than sufficient ...really?, so why bring it up , you arrognant a$$hole

let us speak no further of it. How benevolent.

.............

So let us get this straight: Surak reproached Spock for his emotional slip-up, only to say 2 seconds later the cause was more than sufficient How illogical is that?

Surak's emotions got the better of him, and he didn't have a valid excuse like poor Spock did.

This 'Surak' is not the real Surak. He was created by the Excalbians from the mind of Spock, from what Spock thought, expected and believed that Surak would be like. This ambiguous image of Surak not only represented Spock's idealization of Surak, but also his self-doubt and fears of ever being able to live up to Surak and his teachings.

So, in fact, it was as if Spock was looking into a mirror and chastising himself for his supposed shortcomings.

Other Vulcans, like Sarek, T'Klaas, T'Pol, Sybok, would each have a different 'Surak' to interact with if they were ever on the planet of the Excalbians.

Spock: " It would seem that we were held in the power of creatures able to control matter and to rearrange molecules in whatever fashion was desired. So they were able to create images of Surak and Lincoln after scanning our minds and using their fellow creatures as source matter."

Kirk: "They seemed so real. And to me, especially Mister Lincoln. I feel I actually met Lincoln."

Spock: "Yes, and Surak. Perhaps in a sense they were real, Captain. Since they were created out of our own thoughts, how could they be anything but what we expected them to be?"

So, Spock expected Surak to have/express emotion? How odd.

@Knixon said:

So, Spock expected Surak to have/express emotion? How odd.

Spock wants to be like Surak, but his emotional human-half interferes and confuses him.

@wonder2wonder said:

@Knixon said:

So, Spock expected Surak to have/express emotion? How odd.

Spock wants to be like Surak, but his emotional human-half interferes and confuses him.

I suppose. But that seems like someone who's short, imagining their lifelong fantasy hero also being short, just because THEY are. I've never known anyone who did that. It's common to imagine heroes - or even ourselves - being BETTER than we are, including taller, stronger, etc. Not as short as, or as weak as.

@Knixon said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@Knixon said:

So, Spock expected Surak to have/express emotion? How odd.

Spock wants to be like Surak, but his emotional human-half interferes and confuses him.

I suppose. But that seems like someone who's short, imagining their lifelong fantasy hero also being short, just because THEY are. I've never known anyone who did that. It's common to imagine heroes - or even ourselves - being BETTER than we are, including taller, stronger, etc. Not as short as, or as weak as.

Spock is projecting his own weak doubting human side on the image he has of Surak. This uncertainty interferes with his belief in the Surak, who has mastered Kolinahr. Is he interacting with the latter or with himself? Spock sees both sides mixed in his Surak .

How would a pure Vulcan, like Sarek, not perturbed by being half-human, see Surak?

@wonder2wonder said:

@Knixon said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@Knixon said:

So, Spock expected Surak to have/express emotion? How odd.

Spock wants to be like Surak, but his emotional human-half interferes and confuses him.

I suppose. But that seems like someone who's short, imagining their lifelong fantasy hero also being short, just because THEY are. I've never known anyone who did that. It's common to imagine heroes - or even ourselves - being BETTER than we are, including taller, stronger, etc. Not as short as, or as weak as.

Spock is projecting his own weak doubting human side on the image he has of Surak. This uncertainty interferes with his belief in the Surak, who has mastered Kolinahr. Is he interacting with the latter or with himself? Spock sees both sides mixed in his Surak .

How would a pure Vulcan, like Sarek, not perturbed by being half-human, see Surak?

But remember, the aliens created an image of Surak that would match Spock's thoughts of Surak, and why would Spock think that Surak would have the same kinds of problems that Spock himself has? It's an idealization.

It would be like if the aliens created a Lincoln who viewed Uhura as property. Kirk wouldn't think that ABOUT his IDEALIZED VERSION of Lincoln, so his idealization of Lincoln wouldn't either.

You might have a better argument if you figured that the aliens might incorporate some of Kirk's ideas of Vulcans into Surak as well, especially since Surak spoke English rather than only Vulcan. But maybe Spock would include that on his own, although it certainly wouldn't be Logical to believe that Surak could or would know English. The more Logical approach would be for Surak to only know Vulcan and Spock would have to translate. But that would be a waste of precious minutes.

@Knixon said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@Knixon said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@Knixon said:

So, Spock expected Surak to have/express emotion? How odd.

Spock wants to be like Surak, but his emotional human-half interferes and confuses him.

I suppose. But that seems like someone who's short, imagining their lifelong fantasy hero also being short, just because THEY are. I've never known anyone who did that. It's common to imagine heroes - or even ourselves - being BETTER than we are, including taller, stronger, etc. Not as short as, or as weak as.

Spock is projecting his own weak doubting human side on the image he has of Surak. This uncertainty interferes with his belief in the Surak, who has mastered Kolinahr. Is he interacting with the latter or with himself? Spock sees both sides mixed in his Surak .

How would a pure Vulcan, like Sarek, not perturbed by being half-human, see Surak?

But remember, the aliens created an image of Surak that would match Spock's thoughts of Surak, and why would Spock think that Surak would have the same kinds of problems that Spock himself has? It's an idealization.

It would be like if the aliens created a Lincoln who viewed Uhura as property. Kirk wouldn't think that ABOUT his IDEALIZED VERSION of Lincoln, so his idealization of Lincoln wouldn't either.

You might have a better argument if you figured that the aliens might incorporate some of Kirk's ideas of Vulcans into Surak as well, especially since Surak spoke English rather than only Vulcan. But maybe Spock would include that on his own, although it certainly wouldn't be Logical to believe that Surak could or would know English. The more Logical approach would be for Surak to only know Vulcan and Spock would have to translate. But that would be a waste of precious minutes.

Spock's half-human side (Amanda: English speaking American?) does seem to be meddling a bit too much in Spock's half-Vulcan recreation of Surak. Perhaps he is a bit too much of a 'mama's boy'.

I don't remember ever seeing Spock speak Vulcan except to Saavik, early in "Wrath."

wonder2wonder wrote :

This 'Surak' is not the real Surak. He was created by the Excalbians from the mind of Spock, from what Spock thought, expected and believed that Surak would be like. This ambiguous image of Surak not only represented Spock's idealization of Surak, but also his self-doubt and fears of ever being able to live up to Surak and his teachings

So, in fact, it was as if Spock was looking into a mirror and chastising himself for his supposed shortcomings.

......................................................................................................................

I watched the episode when I was a kid, so in all honesty, I didn't remember much concerning the dialogue which I see now is very important.

So the Excalbians created Surak from the mind of Spock. Well, I have an issue with this.

I can see the Excalbians looking in Spock's mind, but I don't think Spock would imagine Surak as an arrogant prick who brings up the fact he had an emotional reaction seeing him and then two seconds later justifies the emotional reaction by saying: the cause was more than sufficient.

I think the Excalbians looked into Spock's minds and created a Surak based on Spock's experience with Vulcans, as he grew up on Vulcan.. They were arrogant pricks towards him, reminding him constantly he was not Vulcan due to his Human emotional mother. That's why Surak behaves like a moron towards Spock.

......................................................

wonder2wonder wrote :

Kirk: "They seemed so real. And to me, especially Mister Lincoln. I feel I actually met Lincoln."

Spock: "Yes, and Surak. Perhaps in a sense they were real, Captain. Since they were created out of our own thoughts, how could they be anything but what we expected them to be?"

Of course, I don't agree with what the writer got Spock to conclude. It doesn't make sense. Spock would never imagine Surak as an obnoxious prick.

It was the Excalbians who created a Surak that mirrored the nasty Vulcans Spock has had to deal with since he was a child

Interesting point. But why would the Excalbians think that impression was more important?

by knix:

Interesting point. But why would the Excalbians think that impression was more important?

.................................................................

Actually, I don’t think there was any other option.

Let me explain.

When Surak appears ,he says “Live long and Proper to Spock( and Kirk). Spock, instead of returning the greeting, says:

"It is not logical that you are Surak. There is no fact, extrapolation of fact or theory, which would make it possible."

Why?

Because Vulcans let logic dictate their reactions and actions.

Spock not only would not have imagine Surak as an arrogant moron but he would never have wasted time in such futile Human trait as wondering how a meeting with someone of the past could unfold.

Seeing that it’s something that can never occur, Vulcans would not indulge in such irrational and emotional behavior in the first place.

We Humans, being so emotional, have at least once in our lives spent (wasted) time imagining how it would be to meet someone from the past. Maybe someone whose feats on the battlefield we admire ( Cesare, Napoleon), or the writings of a writer we cherish (Shakespeare, Poe etc )

Vulcans are rational beings, so they would not waste time on something emotionally irrational as: I wonder how ….

So the Excalbians based Surak on the only data they found in Spock's mind: that is, Spock’s experience of Vulcans since he was a child. These Vulcans were arrogant morons always ready to taunt him and remind him he was inferior as a Vulcan due to his Human heritage.

Sounds like you're actually overlooking Spock being half-human in the first part - that half-human Spock may indeed have thought about meeting someone famous from the past, indeed why show such reverence for Surak if he hadn't - and that it was Vulcan CHILDREN who mistreated Spock AS A CHILD. Was there ever any evidence that ADULT Vulcans similarly mistreated ADULT Spock?