@write2topcat It does seem that way about Red. Now it also seems as if even Katarina doesn't even know who Red really is - I guess that's why she had Ilyad. Whoever Red is, he does seem to have a history with Dom - when they were together it did seem as if they knew each other pretty well. So Red, Ilyad and Dom all know each other. If it wasn't for that skeleton in the suitcase, I'd guess that Red really is Red and that he made a deal with Ilyad and Dom not to turn them in in return for all that blackmail money.

But our Red knows Katarina and she recognized him in Paris. She acted like she loved him once, as if he were the real Red. But as you said, DNA said the bones were Raymond Reddington. I don't see how the writers can spin their way out of that one. Our Red won't tell Liz who Katarina is holding; he doesn't want to say it is Ilyad because he is supposed to be Ilyad. He is still trying to keep his identity a secret.

It is odd that the team has not done a DNA test on our Red. Seems like they would do it for general purposes. What if he were blown up in an explosion and they needed to identify some body fragments? They would want his DNA on file for such a contingency. Also, they would probably want to confirm his story after they got the results of the bones test.

Who did the DNA test on the skeleton? I don't recall now. It was someone that doctor friend of Lizzie's knew I think. I am trying to figure out if there is a way for that test result to have been compromised by someone, maybe someone trying to interfere with Red's situation. I don't know. I can't see his motive for faking the test to say those were Reddington's bones. I said the writers could not spin their way out of that test, but that isn't true. It might not be apparent now, but they could devise a scenario in which that test was fixed by someone. The bones have been burned to ash now so there can be no other tests done on them.

The problem with that scenario is that Reddington didn't refute the test results and insist that the FBI run their own tests on the bones. He could have.

I don't know. It is a head scratcher.

@write2topcat Red and Katarina do know each other, that's obvious, but maybe not in the way we were led to believe. Like you said, it seemed as if she knew all about Red in Paris, but then the whole thing with Red not being Ilyad came up, and then Katarina's discussion with Liz where it seemed like she didn't know who Red really was ("I'm looking for answers" she said). Unless Katarina does know who Red is and just doesn't want to tell Liz. That actually seems to make more sense TBH. But then, again, why did she have Ilyad? Was it just to help her figure out a way to get the bounty on her called off? It seems she figured out a way to do that anyway. Maybe the whole discussion with Liz was to get Liz to be sympathetic with her which seems to have worked - Liz said to Cooper that although Red had been protecting her, Katarina was the only one telling her the truth (which TBH at this point we don't really know) which means once again Liz will be siding against Red. When it comes to Red and DNA tests, I wouldn't put it past him to get it rigged. In fact I'm going under the assumption he probably did (at least the one saying he's Liz's father). Anyways, it'll be interesting to see where this all goes.

@revengine said:

@write2topcat Red and Katarina do know each other, that's obvious, but maybe not in the way we were led to believe. Like you said, it seemed as if she knew all about Red in Paris, but then the whole thing with Red not being Ilyad came up, and then Katarina's discussion with Liz where it seemed like she didn't know who Red really was ("I'm looking for answers" she said). Unless Katarina does know who Red is and just doesn't want to tell Liz. That actually seems to make more sense TBH. But then, again, why did she have Ilyad? Was it just to help her figure out a way to get the bounty on her called off? It seems she figured out a way to do that anyway. Maybe the whole discussion with Liz was to get Liz to be sympathetic with her which seems to have worked - Liz said to Cooper that although Red had been protecting her, Katarina was the only one telling her the truth (which TBH at this point we don't really know) which means once again Liz will be siding against Red. When it comes to Red and DNA tests, I wouldn't put it past him to get it rigged. In fact I'm going under the assumption he probably did (at least the one saying he's Liz's father). Anyways, it'll be interesting to see where this all goes.

No, the DNA test showing Raymond Reddington is Lizzie's father was done using blood from a shirt taken from a bloodied up Naval Officer Raymond Reddington that was in a file from all the way back when Cooper was also in the Navy and part of a rescue operation to save him. In other words, they used a blood sample they knew was from Reddington. At the time they still believed our Red was the real Red. Cooper used that sample so he didn't have to approach Red and try to get a sample from him. So Lizzie is the daughter of the real Red.

The test I was talking about was the one Tom had done on the bones. I was trying to figure how our Red could be the real Red, and for that to be true, then the test of the bones would have to have been faked to say it was Red. But why would Red want them to think he wasn't the real Reddington? So then you wonder could someone else have known, and had a reason to fake the test to say Red was dead? That is conceivable. Once Red found out the bones were tested and said he was dead however, why wouldn't he simply say "here, test my blood? I am the real Red." I cannot think of a reason for him not to do that. I can't make that work. I can't make it work that he is the real Reddington.

I'm guessing my two Katarinas theory was correct, only the one Ilya told the plan to was the fake one, not the real one. And the only one who knew she was a fake, at the time, was Dom, hence why he tried to kill her. Real Katarina isn't grasping this, though (I guess that's where Liz gets it from), and Red realized when he was being tortured "Oh, the one I told the plan to decades ago was a fake" but is keeping that knowledge to himself.

Plus I'm beyond sick of Liz's anywhere the wind blows allegiance. So freakin' gullible.

@RodimusConvoy said:

Plus I'm beyond sick of Liz's anywhere the wind blows allegiance. So freakin' gullible.

They wore that plot trick out years ago, but the writers cannot make themselves give it up. She is supposed to have psychological insights into people. But she repeatedly says stupid things like

"He doesn't really love me, he only spent his fortune protecting me, and offered up his life to save mine numerous times in order to trick me into trusting him, so he could lie to me. I am through trusting him."

and when she found out he wasn't the real Reddington and worked with her half sister to set him up "Yes, I knew he would offer his life in exchange for mine, haha, and he did just what I figured he would and fell right into my trap. It would have worked too if the team had not gotten here when they did."

Whoever the hell he is, he has proven his love and concern for her life to be his sole reason for living. But he insists on keeping some things secret. So he is EVIL. Oh my god, she is truly a basketcase.

Can you imagine being married to her? "Honey do these pants make my butt look fat?"

You answer "No baby, you look fine in those pants."

"LIAR! MY BUTT DOES LOOK FAT IN THESE PANTS, I ALREADY CHECKED. YOU LIED. I WILL NEVER TRUST YOU AGAIN IN MY LIFE!"

Plus why is she telling everyone who he really is? Staying "Red" is what is keeping his empire together. I think part of the reason he didn't want to tell her is because she has a big mouth. This woman has not verified her identity as her mother beyond her word, but, pft why not "He's not REALLY Red you know".

Should have stayed dead...

I have to agree about Liz - in the same episode she'll go from being someone's BFF to worst enemy for life (most of the time it's Red). I don't think Red is really Red either but it does seem apparent that he's someone we haven't met yet either (or maybe he is - could go either way at this point) - it's just the "he's not Ilyad" thing has really thrown a monkey wrench into the works. Maybe Red is Katarina's lover that they supposedly killed when trying to kill her? Maybe he's Tom? I'll probably end up having a "Oh yeah, I should have guessed that" moment when they do reveal it.

So, Red doesn't know that Liz knows this woman from Paris is apparently Katarina, her mother? He wants Liz to think Katarina died a while ago I guess? Because you would think that when he saw Katarina apparently killed, he would tell Liz all about it because it no longer mattered now that Katarina is dead. But he obviously didn't. So that's kind of interesting as well.

Red almost always opts to keep things secret from Liz, mostly on the grounds that knowing too much could put her in danger, and that is a valid position. There is the general rule that you're better off not knowing classified type stuff which you don't have a need to know, so you're not a loose end which needs to be tied up. But a second reason is that Lizzie has notoriously poor judgment and rarely thinks things through, or considers different possibilities. She has a long history of being headstrong and charging headlong into things, ignoring Red's warnings and advice, and winding up in another jam. Then Red has to offer his life in exchange for hers...again. "Oh gee, I didn't think of that" should probably be on her tombstone when she is finally buried for real.

Plus she's wholly incompetent as a law enforcement agent, FBI or otherwise. Once she realized who Katarina was she should have called for backup. Why she figured Katarina would be alone is anyone's guess.

Plus now I'm thinking she's a horrible human being: the protection detail, while she may figure Katarina herself didn't kill them, she knows she had them killed. They were innocent. So she's effectively helping their murderer escape. When Red kills someone, the show at least lets the audience know they were bad people anyway (most obvious example is the Pig Latin guy). The show not only didn't do this with the two FBI agents, they did the opposite, humanized them a bit before having Katarina's lackey kill them in the street. So screw their families having closure, apparently. This woman admitted it, but said "it'll make sense" so good enough!

As for Red, again I'm thinking he didn't say anything about Katarina's recent "death" is cause he thinks Katarina is a fake anyway. The tension or crux of the story, that will probably come in the penultimate episode of the season, is finding out no THIS Katarina is real.

As for who Red really is now? I've been wrong so far so I pause in guessing. lol I will say, with confidence, he is NOT Katarina. I wish that theory would die (the showrunners even mocked it) but with this Ilya revelation it has popped up again in certain circles. But one theory I've read, is that he's Red, pretending to be Ilya, pretending to be Red. So whose bones were those? Ilya's twin brother? I don't know anymore.

@write2topcat said:

Red almost always opts to keep things secret from Liz, mostly on the grounds that knowing too much could put her in danger, and that is a valid position. There is the general rule that you're better off not knowing classified type stuff which you don't have a need to know, so you're not a loose end which needs to be tied up. But a second reason is that Lizzie has notoriously poor judgment and rarely thinks things through, or considers different possibilities. She has a long history of being headstrong and charging headlong into things, ignoring Red's warnings and advice, and winding up in another jam. Then Red has to offer his life in exchange for hers...again. "Oh gee, I didn't think of that" should probably be on her tombstone when she is finally buried for real.

This is a great point. I'm not a fan of static characters, and she should have grown beyond this at least two seasons prior. The show is clever as it is, but if this is the best they can do to create conflict maybe they should call it a day. No one wants to see the same character learn the same lesson over and over and over again, said lesson never sticking.

The rest of the show is pretty strong, I think. But Liz is almost a joke, as a character. She is supposed to be a trained profiler, and to have keen, insights and skills understanding people's behavior. And I think she studied psychology as an undergrad. But she is one dumb bird. As you said, people normally learn from their mistakes, especially those they make several times. We don't see Lizzie doing this.

It is very common in TV and film media in recent years to see characters who use what I will call "emotive reasoning", which really isn't reasoning at all, but an immature emotional, often angry, snap judgment which reflects resentments, or jealousies, and which often postures the character as a victim. I am not sure why this childish and irresponsible reflex is substituted for thinking so commonly in TV character these days, but I see it far too often for it to be accidental.

Lizzie has demonstrated this trait many times, usually when she learns Red is keeping a secret from her. Have you noticed that she calls this lying? He tells her up front that there are personal things he won't tell her, things which don't concern her and could even be dangerous for her to know, and he certainly will not tell her these secrets. And Lizzie goes into her "ah ha!" mode and tells Red "I thought we were going to be honest with each other." If he won't tell her everything he knows, whether it concerns her or not, or would endanger her to know it, she calls this being dishonest. That is one way to posture as a victim and portray the other person as an abuser. In truth, Lizzie misrepresented Red as a liar, because he was perfectly honest that he was keeping a secret. She was just mad that he wouldn't tell her.

Aram used to be a weak character. It was not credible to show him as an FBI agent when he could not bring himself to take a human life, even though doing so would save many innocent lives. Nobody relishes the idea of killing another person (unless they are sick), but agents are sworn to use deadly force when needed to fulfill their duties. In the first several years, Aram acted like a total pacifist who could not be counted upon to do that. But they have changed his character now and he now will fire his weapon at bad guys when the situation requires it.

Maybe they can change Lizzie for the better.

Damn I wish I could have conversations like this in real life. lol You and revengine are bringing it.

Agreed again, and to further your point: Red killing Mr. Kaplan. Or "killing" her since he didn't know about the metal plate in her head. We got a whole freakin' season of Red learning why he should have found a better way, and that stuck. Aram is a good example (I'm not a fan of this married woman relationship plot but I think they're going somewhere with it). Ressler is interesting in that he still verbally calls Red on his ish, but he gets, or rather acquiesces, that sometimes you have to break the law to uphold the law. At least in this line of business. You can go down the list of how these characters have grown throughout the series (Harold, even Samar before she left)...except Liz. And its frustrating.

"emotive reasoning" as you call it is interesting, in that while there may not be an actual word for it (though "emotive reasoning" works IMO), I've seen it all my life...in soaps. This is what drives soap operas, but police procedurals that have dramatic elements are not soaps. There may be some overlap in certain tropes, but they are not soaps. So seeing Liz portray this particular trait while no one else is is especially annoying. Heck while Red gets most of the brunt the other characters are constantly reacting to her doing this. Plus how can we take her seriously when she immediately blabs whatever secret Red kept from her? If its not your secret to know, but he tells you anyway, why is it then your secret to tell? That never made sense to me. And it still doesn't. How can you both put him in a position of "abuser" as you put it, but then confirm his reasons for why he "abuses" you when he finally gives in? Its bizarre to me.

Good point about Lizzie blabbing. That is another immature and "unthinking" trait of hers. She will confidently say she can keep a secret. But she is one of those people who can later feel some emotion and think it justifies her telling the secret. She doesn't think, she feels.

Liz strikes me as someone who says she can keep a secret and then she tells her best friend and believes it is OK because "I know I can trust her to keep a secret". You ever know anyone like that? They think it doesn't count if they tell that friend, because it is still a secret, because their friend "would never tell'. But this friend also knows a very trustworthy friend she knows she can tell anything and they will keep it a secret. Then the first friend gets upset because "you weren't supposed to tell". If an advertising agency ever figures out how to harness this trait they will be able to market products all over town for free.

Red should ask Liz if she can keep a secret. Liz will say "Yes". And Red should answer "so can I." Secrets don't get told, that is the nature of secrets.

I just saw Katarina Rostova episode. She managed to fake her death in front of Reddington so he thinks she is dead now. Ilya Koslov was rescued and is recovering now. And Lizzie is being Lizzie. Honestly, they repeat the same plot device over and over and over and over...

This man they call Reddington has a secret he can't share with her. His deal with the FBI is predicated on the blacklisters he can deliver to them as he works to keep Lizzie safe. That is his whole reason for living, it seems. Elizabeth seems to think Red shouldn't be allowed to keep any secrets from him. She keeps them from him, of course. But the fact he has secrets makes him a bad person in her eyes, despite the fact that few people on the planet have ever showed her as much love as he has, repeatedly laying down his life to save hers. Lizzie cycles through periods when she accepts that on the whole he is a force for good, and he would die to protect her. And then she reverts to the position that if he keeps something secret from her, it is a betrayal worse than anything.