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Claimed Anachronisms: True or False (Replicated from IMDB forum post)
posted by warrior-poetSTAFFMOD on July 28, 2017 at 5:13 AM
This is a replicated post from IMDB, but thought it may have some tidbits others here may find interesting:
First off I'll say that for me personally this show hit on the perfect combination of 80's story and character components that often missed the mark for me back then in my teenage years. Various movies, shows, etc. had aspects of it but most never quite got there, or had this particular combination, were too cheesy, too low budget, etc. to be perfect (but with elements that still tickled my fancy), only a few getting close to what Stranger Things did for me. In fact, this may be my all-time favorite series, amalgamating the exact character and story elements I always wanted to see when I was younger (from the perspective of a production aimed at invoking 80's nostalgia, that is). Couldn’t stop watching it.
Eleven did the cool things I'd wanted her to do, right in the moments I wanted her to (with no cop-outs on the brutality, but being a true friend to the boys). Hopper was exactly the character I wanted him to be, a good but troubled guy whose practical mind took over in the end (he wants to protect the town by aiding the bad guys). Absolutely loved Gaten Matarazzo's character of Dustin Henderson, lisp and all. A touch of Xtro II sprinkled in (and perhaps shades of Koontz's Seize The Night/The Watchers). Splash some D&D (as well as the original box for the Dungeon board game in a scene which I audibly giggled over to my utter shame), blend in a King and Carpenter edge to a Spielburgian E.T-era tone, and this thing hit on all cylinders for me. After the gravely (pun intended) disappointing Dead Of Summer, this exceeded my expectations.
I do feel it's over-hyped, however, in some cases to a ridiculous extent. In fact, any movie or show that's received the extreme buildup this thing has gotten is probably over-hyped, meaning nothing in existence is deserving of the near-hysterical drooling that this has engendered. Although the 80's nostalgia is what elevates it for me, I think that factor blinded some people’s objectivity. This factor has led to some very underserving and just as ridiculous hate and blinded objectivity in the negative spectrum as well, with some going out of their way to lambast fastidiously nitpicky things that if not over-exaggerated were glaringly incorrect (one guy even tried to tell me on a rabbit-trail thread that I couldn’t have had a Walmart near me in 1983, after which I found a list of all store openings throughout Walmart’s history, proving there was one right where I said it was).
Which leads me to the rest of this post…
There’s a number of instances being bandied about as to whether certain elements found in Stranger Things are appropriate for 1983 or are anachronistic. Some of these claims are wrong (some stupidly wrong), some are right (although in most cases inconsequential yet interesting), others are on the line of improbability but acceptable in a work of fiction since all cinema is a type of alternate universe where details may differ (especially with this type of story). It’s fine to relay personal experiences (e.g. “well I said douche bag in ’83”), but that alone is not enough to form a solid conclusion on. Anecdotal proclamations can be potentially erroneous or disingenuous and therefore I will attempt to validate, verify, substantiate, nullify, refute, some of these instances with documented facts (while adding some of my own personal anecdotes).
Below is a list of alleged out-of-era occurrences in Stranger Things along with whether or not they are, or are actually period-appropriate. I’ll also provide an outline list of genuine anachronistic items.
The term douchebag/douche bag wasn’t used in 1983: false (in fact stupidly false)
First let’s look at some of the vernacular that is considered iconic to the 80’s era, words that have been suggested by posters arguing against the use of “douchebag” that would have been more appropriate to use in Stranger Things. Rather than argue whether or not a term or phrase was said in a certain region of the U.S. vs. another, which is entirely possible but can for the most part only be based on anecdotal evidence, which is subject to error, I’m going to count the number of times each phrase or word (or a variation of a phrase or word) is used in cinema between 1980 and 1985, and present a report of its occurrence in literature from 1960 to 2000.
Most of the below words were used only in specific regions by certain social groups. Most of them weren’t common throughout the country, despite some claiming they were. But let’s look at Hollywood’s use of these various words in cinema (which again, doesn’t necessarily accurately reflect U.S.-wide vernacular, but if Stranger Things was trying to reflect 80’s cinema and literature it’s a pretty good measure). Plus, it’s something that’s documented in a searchable database that can be verified by anyone wishing to put forth effort.
So let’s see how many movies each word can be found in at least once to establish how widely it was used by providing a list of how many screenwriters employed each term when writing their scripts.
- Airhead: 7 (I discovered this term far predates the 80’s by decades, and isn’t 80’s-specific)
- Awesome: 33 (predates the 80’s and always used in the same manner, i.e. it isn’t really an 80’s-specific term)
- Barf Me Out: 2 (with only one possible usage, this one was easy to suss out)
- Bitchin': 11 (used as an adjective, not the term meaning to complain or whine, which was pervasive)
- Bite Me: 0 (was a bit surprised to not find this during ’80-’85, but there was several instances in the 70’s)
- Bogus: 4 (been around for decades, but this represents the 80’s usage of the term)
- Bunk: 2 (meaning something akin to garbage, nonsense, etc.)
- Burn: 3 (meaning to embarrass, to defeat, put down, etc.)
- Dude: 4 (I assume this means in the context of “Duuuude!”; otherwise it far predates the 80’s)
- Dweeb: 9
- Fer Sure: 0 (to be fair, the database may spell this as “for sure”, but there’s far too many to pick through)
- Fly: 0 (can’t find this use of the term, but there’s so many other uses I may have missed it)
- Fresh: 4 (numerous instances, but I pinpointed those with a usage of “that’s fresh” or “fresh!”)
- Gag Me: 3 (the 80’s usage)
- Gnarly: 5 (the 80’s usage)
- Like: X (far too many other uses to pinpoint, but I’m sure any valley-based film included this)
- Oh My God!: 2 (not specific to the 80’s, but tried to pinpoint this to that 80’s spin/usage)
- Poser: 2 (basically the same as a “wannabe”)
- Psych: 4 (I assume this meant someone saying something followed by “psych!”, or used as in “psyched out/up”)
- Rad: 4 (the 80’s usage)
- Righteous: 7 (the 80’s usage; 5 of them in 1985)
- Space Cadet: 4
- To The Max: 5
- Totally Awesome: 3 (“totally” can’t be narrowed down so I combined these into their 80’s usage)
- Totally: 17 (far predates the 80’s so focused on standalone 80’s usage, i.e. “totally!”, “,totally”, etc.)
- Tubular: 2
- Wannabe: 5
So let’s compare that to the total number of movies “douche bag/douchebag” (I used both spellings to capture all instances) was used in at least once from ‘80-‘85: 20. You read that correct: 20.
Douche Bag: 20
So “douche bag” used as an insult occurs in more movies between 1980 and 1985 than every so-called iconic 80’s term listed above except “awesome”, which in reality isn’t actually an 80’s-specific term, and was used decades prior in the same fashion (or, if we only include use of the word with a certain 80’s inflection ala Fast Times at Ridgemont High the number of movies drops to just a handful). The only other word that comes close is “totally”, and that plummets also if including only that certain 80’s inflection and tone.
Bottom line: “douche bag” usage in cinema from ’80 to ’85 far exceeds most iconic 80’s terms.
In case you want to verify, do your own research here: http://www.subzin.com. Run an Advanced search with Type set to Movie in the drop-down, sorted by Oldest, then count through 80’s uses. It’s quite a bit of work on some of these because there’s so many other uses. Be cautious of listings with “No Cover Yet” or foreign films. Many of those are modern television episodes that have gotten crossed in the database due to sharing the same title. You have to look at them more thoroughly to ascertain their accuracy.
Phones couldn’t be purchased at stores in 1983: false
Until 1976, when the FCC set the wheels in motion for consumers to purchase their own telephones with the Resale and Shared Use decision, telephone customers didn't own their home telephones. They rented them from AT&T. Although phones were available for sale by third party manufacturers in the 70’s, in 1983 AT&T stopped leasing phones and started selling them themselves. Meaning, what we see in Stranger Things is very plausible. There were even portable phones in 1980, albeit expensive ones in big ol’ boxes.
My mother purchased an old-fashioned “Victorian” rotary style phone with RJ-11 plug for the living room that we had in the house we lived in from ’79 to ’80. In 1984 my parents bought my sister a phone that looked like a pair of lips. Many movies from the era portray phones of this type if you want visual confirmation.
No phone jacks were RJ-11 in 1983: false (with a caveat: there were adapters)
In 1965 the Trimline phone was the first to use the predecessor to the modular RJ-11. Modular connectors were patented by General Cable Corp in 1974 and they replaced the hardwired connections on most Western Electric telephones by 1976. At the same time, they began to replace screw terminals and larger 3 and 4 pin telephone jacks in buildings (until replaced an adapter was necessary). This includes the modular RJ-11 connector and plug still used by phones today. If the phone in the show is RJ-11 it’s very plausible, although the outlet, which could very well have still been hardwired, may have needed an adapter to a modular RJ-11 plug. There are old houses today that still need four-pin to RJ-11 adapters, or the outlet converted. But the bottom line is that all phones manufactured after 1976 had RJ-11 connectors, requiring adapters or conversion of wall outlets.
When my parents moved us into a home in late 1980 there was the older style four-pronged phone connector on the wall in the kitchen. I’d never seen it before so asked my dad what it was. By that time all phones were RJ-11 (which started in 1976) so an adapter was needed. We had one RJ-11 phone that was personally purchased a few years prior. That means we were at least using RJ-11 phones at our previous house during ’79-’80.
The bikes are inaccurate for the period: partially correct
Mike’s bike was recreated to be a fully accurate replica of a traditional muscle/wheelie bike, including the banana seat, i.e. its 80’s-accurate. Dustin’s bike, although a modern BMX frame (which is barely discernable from a BMX frame from 1983 except to experts), has a typical BMX saddle seat, so is acceptable (e.g. compare it to the bikes in E.T.). Only Lucas’ bike is an odd combination that would have been rare, although not unheard of (there were in a fact a couple of BMX-framed bikes with banana seats manufactured, but such a chimera was more likely to have been modified). Both of the “BMX” frames are a more modern style using a 26t / 9t gear set rather than 44t / 18t. And I must say that if the threadless stem on the banana seat of Lucas’ bike would have been black it would have been less obvious, although only BMX enthusiasts care about this.
People weren’t buying Atari’s in 1983: false
Atari VCS (2600 model) took a while to catch on and didn't jump in sales until 1979 when they went to a year-round game release strategy, then skyrocketed in popularity in 1980 when Space Invaders came out. New unit sales dropped quite a bit in 1984 and it declined from there, but wasn’t discontinued until 1992. The Atari 5200 (the so-called "super system") was released in 1982. The Atari 800 was released in ’83.
The decline in sales of the VCS (at that time rebranded to the 2600, the model number) began in ‘83 as the market became oversaturated with other systems, and Atari ended up posting losses at the end of the year. Much of this was actually related to poor sales of their other more expensive systems and computers as people began choosing Intellivision and Colecovision as their console “upgrade”, and other home computers over Atari’s versions. But they still sold quite a few, albeit now lower-priced, 2600 units in ’83, with a whole slew of new games put out, including the Swordquest series and challenge, Dig Dug, Pole Position, etc.
I didn’t get a VCS (the 4-switch model) until Christmas of ’81 after I started 7th grade. The fact is 2600 units continued to sell all throughout the 80’s and outlasted it’s successors that were discontinued earlier.
It should be noted that in the show they only ever say “Atari”. They never specify model or type.
The kids couldn’t have had the movie posters seen in 1983: false (with a side note: The Thing on VHS 1984)
Malls had stores that sold them, along with video stores, and they could be acquired at theater screenings. I had a Halloween poster, E.T. and Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back in 1983 at thirteen. I had the added advantage of having an uncle that was a movie distributor and had many posters in rolls in the closet.
The more specific debate may surround the Evil Dead and The Thing posters on Mike’s wall. The posters in the show are most likely reprints, but they are the original artwork and layout sold in the 80’s. I personally didn’t see either movie until they were both out for rent on home video, although Mike could have watched them in theaters at ten or eleven years of age (which he would have been in 1981 and ‘82) if his father was a horror fan and took him along. Evil Dead was released on home video in 1983, and it’s acceptable for Mike to have the poster. It’s also possible for Mike to have acquired a The Thing poster, bought at a mall specialty store.
However, The Thing wasn’t released on VHS until 1984, so the scenes with the science teacher watching the movie isn’t possible unless it was recorded from HBO (if it in fact aired on HBO in 1983, which I couldn’t validate).
The term mouth-breather wasn’t used in 1983: false
The term wasn’t as widely used, and there are no occurrences in early 80’s movies (that I can find). However, it was used on television, literature and in real life. For television examples, instances of it occurred as an insult on M.A.S.H, Sledgehammer, Miami Vice, etc. Not common, not an iconic 80’s term, but it was used.
Here’s a reference from ‘Historical Dictionary of American Slang’:
MOUTH-BREATHER noun 1960s and still in use: A stupid person, moron, idiot, especially a particularly stupid thug. [from the noisy, heavy breathing of such individuals]. “Some MOUTH-BREATHER in the office told me it would be OK.”
MOUTH-BREATHING adjective [1970s and still in use]: Stupid, moronic “If the dumb MOUTH-BREATHING bastards in the street only understood.”—Patrick Mann, “. . . a quirky Canadian sport run by morons, played by barbarians, and watched by MOUTH-BREATHING, two-fisted slobbers.” —‘Milwaukee Journal’
Cassell’s Dictionary of Slang puts “mouth-breathing” as a slang adjective in the 1980’s:
Reference to usage of “mouth-breather” as a noun in the 1970’s on (from ‘The Dictionary Of American Slang’).
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/mouth-breather
The ‘A Way With Words’ site includes various references where the pejorative of “mouth-breather” was used:
http://www.waywordradio.org/?s=mouth-breather&submit=search[
“How can we reach out to the average viewer?” You know…the middle-class mouth-breather with the camper truck and the short attention span.» —“Mary Shelley, Mary Shelley” by Cyra McFadden New York Times Mag. Feb. 5, 1978.”
Google NGram search for the term in literature (check out 1981):
Will’s mixtape included a song by The Smith’s that wasn’t known in the U.S. until 1984: true (with a caveat)
This is plausible if Jonathan was really into obscure music from Europe that hadn't blown up or been released in the States yet because there were ways to acquire bootlegs of such material. Improbable but plausible, especially within the context of an alternate world fictional setting where such details might differ. I can personally give this one a pass, given the nature and interests of Will’s character.
Hopper, who mentions the NSA, would know nothing about the NSA in 1983: false (with a side note)
It could be argued that it might be more likely for Hopper to mention the CIA over the NSA, and it’s true the CIA was more of a household name in 1983. However, there are occurrences in cinema and television from that era that mention the NSA (which contradicts another false claim). For example, the movie Fathom (1967), the episode entitled Inquisition from the show The Invaders (1968), the Wonder Woman episode called The Man Who Made Volcanoes (1977), the movie The Falcon And The Snowman (1985), an episode of Scarecrow And Mrs. King called Stemwinder (1986), the movie No Way Out (1987), etc. The NSA was formed in 1952, so it’s not at all unbelievable for a law enforcement official like Hopper to have heard about it.
However, the premise of the show is based loosely on the concepts of the real-world MKUltra program run by the CIA. So although it’s quite plausible for Hopper to mention the NSA, it may have made more sense within the context of the show to have him ponder about the CIA’s possible involvement instead. On the other hand, the NSA is what was chosen, therefore that’s what happened. Who are we to question it?
As a side note, I’d heard of the NSA in various television shows and movies throughout the 80’s, even on an episode of Simon & Simon, I recall. I’d always thought the NSA was an oft-used fictional big bad government organization until the 90’s when I learned it was a real government entity that’d existed for years.
Kids didn’t play D&D in 1983: false (in fact stupidly false)
Utter nonsense. They even played it in the movie E.T. I personally played it (far too abundantly) starting at age 10. There were nonsense specials and articles about the dangers of D&D to children and a huge scare that it was satanic and a bad influence on teens playing it. Tom Hanks even starred in a TV movie about it. 1983 was the height of D&D popularity. It plateaued by the end of the 80’s and began to decline in the 90’s. It was so popular in the early 80’s that in 1982 the first D&D-based novel was published, with numerous follow-ups throughout the 80’s (even to this day), and notably in 1983 the Saturday morning animated series began (airing for two seasons). The kids in the show are D&D fantasy geeks, not the everyday more popular, more social, less creative variety. To suggest that the boys playing D&D is out of place in that era is completely ridiculous.
Kids didn’t read Tolkien literature in 1983: false (in fact stupidly false)
Absurd. Tolkien’s works were the very basis of D&D. Every gaming nerd had read them multiple times, along with many other fantasy novels, and had seen the made-for-TV animated specials.
Kids didn’t watch the Tolkien-based animated films by 1983: false (in fact stupidly false)
The 1977 The Hobbit was a made-for-TV special that aired on NBC. The Return of the King was a made-for-TV animated special that aired on ABC in 1980. Bakshi's 1978 The Lord Of The Rings was first available on home video in 1982 (with follow-up releases in 1993 and DVD in 2001). By 1983 I’d watched all three several times, although was disappointed with all of them. They didn’t do the books justice, and I wasn’t fond of the animation (I’d had a taste of anime by that time and it was hard to compare). Not only is it plausible that a D&D geek would have watched them, it’s all but a guarantee. It’s utterly ridiculous to doubt it.
As a side note, one of my favorite animated films to this day is Bakshi’s Fire And Ice, something I first rented in ’85 and at least twice a year throughout my teenage years. The Frazettaesque characters (especially Darkwolf, an incarnation of the Death Dealer) and story was spot-on. It wasn’t officially released on disc until about 10 years ago (before then I had a bootleg DVD that included the soundtrack). Plus, Teegra…. mmmmmmm. Sorry, I drooled there a bit. Damn, need a napkin for my keyboard now. One of my favorites to this day.
It would be too cold for the teens to be in a swimming pool in Fall in Indiana: false
It’s specifically stated in the show that the pool is heated. Plus, they weren’t swimming. They were partying around the pool and then one got pushed in. Their intent was not to swim, meaning the claim itself is based on a false premise. The average high in October for Indiana is 62 degrees, with the average low around 42 degrees. I would guess it was in the 50’s possibly during the scene in the show, which does make it quite cold for swimming, but again it’s a heated pool and they weren’t actually swimming. Notice all the steam coming off the pool. That wasn’t added. That was occurring because it was actually cool during filming, with a heated pool.
No one would ask “you chill?” in 1983: false
“Chill out” was fairly common in cinema, and just “chill” or “just chill” is out there as well (16 movies from ’80-’85). But this revolves around the question of whether or not phrases such as “you chill?” or “I’m chill” were used. There’s an instance between ’80-’85 (to keep within the same time frame as the above results) of “I’m chill” in the 1985 movie Krush Groove, and an instance of “I’m chillin’” in the 1983 movie Style Wars. So it was used in that manner, even if infrequently. In addition, take a look at the following link for “chill” where it gives the example of “I’m chill” as an 80’s use: http://www.80snostalgia.com/80s-dictionary
911 wasn’t available in 1983: partially correct
Only 50% of the nation had 911 access even by 1987. In 1979 it was around 26%, so in 1983 it’d be somewhere in the middle of that. An interesting bit of trivia is that the Federal Trade Commission along with AT&T (which held a monopoly on phone services at that time) originally announced plans to build the first 911 system in Huntington, Indiana. However, due to some political goings-on the first 911 system was put into place in Haleyville, Alabama in 1968. Perhaps it being in fictional Hawkins, IN in 1983 isn’t farfetched, but it’s unlikely a small town would have had it yet, making Will dialing 911 improbable, even if slightly possible.
Legitimate Anachronisms
Below is a list of viable “errors” or anachronistic “easter eggs”, along with some continuity mistakes. I’m not going to list various two-camera setup or multi-angle editing inconsistencies (e.g. someone’s hand is in a different place between shots, a soda can is facing a different direction, light coming in through a window changes between shots, etc.), many of which can be found in any movie to various degrees, but especially television shows, which have a very tight shooting schedule and many moving parts, making continuity more difficult to uphold.
- There’s a modern DISH satellite on the side of the house in the background in episode 2
- Barbara’s car was manufactured in 1988
- The Millennium Falcon is the 2004 version (with clear plastic engines instead of orange stickers from the 70’s)
- We only see Nancy fire 6 rounds from her 6-chamber revolver, yet we hear 10 shots (4 off-screen)
- Hopper administers CPR to Will using the modern method that didn’t exist until 2010
- There’s a Ford Fiesta in the school parking lot that wasn’t made until 1986
- The school buses have a modern design from the 90’s
- A 1985-88 Chevy Nova makes an appearance
- People watch The Thing on VHS, which wasn’t released until 1984 (perhaps it was recorded from HBO?)
- The book "Great American Ghost Stories" by Hans Holzer wasn't published until 1990
- The Realistic TRC-214 walkie talkies the boys use were not released by Radioshack until 1985
- The phrase “just sayin’” as a follow-up standalone phrase was rare or did not exist in the 80’s
- The back end of an early ‘90’s Dodge van is seen
- We see Trident White gum in the supermarket, which wasn’t introduced until 2001
- Adding “right now” to the phrase “are you serious” wasn’t yet used in the early 80’s
- The PEZ dispenser Dustin dumps out of his backpack is a Jack In The Box clown only made in 1999
- Hopper drives a K5 blazer with a facelift package that wasn’t manufactured until 1984
- Hopper’s blazer also sports a Code 3 MX7000 light bar that wasn’t produced until the mid-90’s
- The periodic table Nancy studies for includes elements that weren’t discovered until years later
- Although the term “stalker” was common, the modern conception of the term didn’t exist until 1991
- Several times Crosman 2240 airguns, released in 1999, are used by Brenner’s men
- It appears as if Sunglasses At Night by Corey Hart, which was released in 1984, is playing in the car
- Hopper’s radio is a modern Motorola, a digital radio from about ten years ago
- Lucas’ bike is a modern BMX frame with a banana seat (not unheard of, but feels out of place)
- A few characters wield MP-5K PDW submachineguns, which weren’t made until 1991
- Before Will is abducted he drops the Byer’s phone receiver; the next morning it’s back on the cradle
More alleged goofs are welcome. I’ll scrutinize them and see if they hold up. If they do I’ll add them to the above list.
Reply by Kylopod
on July 28, 2017 at 7:01 AM
I was once watching Back to the Future for the umpteenth time, and I noticed that during one of the scenes in the cafe, you can hear someone in the background asking for a "cherry coke." I was sure this was a mistake, but then I looked it up and discovered that while the brand Coca Cola Cherry wasn't introduced until the 1980s (1985, in fact, the same year BTTF came out), the term "cherry coke" had existed since much earlier, referring to Coke flavored manually with cherry syrup.
Another example where I had this sort of experience was with the term "nookie." For some reason I got the impression it was a term from hip hop music, probably coming originally from black English. But then one day I was watching one of the old Pink Panther movies (which I first saw as a small child, when most of the sexual references flew right over my head), and Cloussea refers to a brothel as a "nookie factory." It took me aback, but then I looked it up and discovered the term is first recorded in the 1930s.
There's a TV Tropes page called "Older than they think," with loads of examples like this. In fact a rule of thumb when it comes it to modern technologies and popular phrases is that they are usually older than most people realize. It's part of the way our memories work, that we often fail to notice something (or scrub it from our memories) until it's been around for a while, and therefore we end up assuming it first appeared much later than it did.
Reply by warrior-poet
on July 28, 2017 at 7:14 AM
Very well said! And great examples.
Yes, soda jerks (yes that's what those who served them were called, as funny as that term seems to be today, working in malt shops, drugstores, etc.) back in the day could fix you all kinds of flavored sodas (usually Coca-Cola) from cherry to vanilla to lemon to chocolate (and many more). They're very rare today, but there are a few around that are styled like the old 50's stores (we've got one in our small historical "downtown" area).
Reply by poit57
on August 24, 2017 at 9:54 PM
I just finished the first season last night, so this is my first time reading any discussions about the series. I'm surprised that some of those things were even pointed out as suspected anachronisms, like the RJ11 phone jacks. I was born in 1981, so I don't remember what phone jacks would have looked like in 1983, but those were the only type of phone jacks I'd ever seen in my childhood home. I'd never seen a 4-pin type until my brother bought a house last year that was built in 1976.
On the NSA, though, I think the information provided in the OP is inaccurate. I personally thought the NSA was created after the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center, so that is one potential anachronism that stood out to me. The official website states that the agency was created in 1952 in their FAQ's.
Wikipedia states that the origins of the agency can be traced to 1917, but at that time, it was known as the "Cipher Bureau."
Reply by Kylopod
on August 24, 2017 at 10:47 PM
Probably you were thinking of the Department of Homeland Security, which was created in response to 9/11.
Reply by warrior-poet
on August 24, 2017 at 11:18 PM
That's great info! Yes I used the 1917 date because of the possible ties to the old Cipher Bureau. However, if the official NSA website says 1952 that seems a more viable date to use for the NSA's birth. Thanks for posting that clarification. I'm going to update the OP with 1952, changed from 1917. It definitely seems more accurate based on what you found on NSA's own site.
Yeah some of the nutty things a few very loud posters were claiming were anachronistic within the first couple of months of the show's original release were pretty unbelievable. All shows/films have their haters, especially when one is so exorbitantly popular (and a bit over-hyped) as this one was/is. Fanboys and haters alike will say just about anything and nothing will persuade them, not even empirically verifiable evidence.
Reply by tmdb85762633
on July 9, 2019 at 10:57 AM
It is insane to state the temperatures for the entire state as you did. The northern, central, and southern parts of the state have entirely different weather and temperature ranges.
911 has been available in Indiana for 50 years; even in most rural areas.
Your statement is nonsense; it is very LIKELY that a town like "Hawkins" would have it, especially in 1983... probably even in the 70s... no, definitely in the 70s. You are just making up things here... Also, Hawkins isn't really a "small" town... Real small towns DO NOT & DID NOT Have MALLS and did not have MOVIE THEATERS inside of malls!!!! Many of the things they have in this series are not realistic to most small towns in Indiana. But they definitely had 911 well before 1983.
Many small towns in Indiana did not have cable TV systems until the late 80s; some not until the 90s. I know many people who worked on cable crews to install "cable" through Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Tennessee, Kentucky... they did this in the 80s and even into the 90s to install cable to areas that didn't have it.
Never heard that added to it anywhere else ever before this show.
That is absolutely FALSE!
Reply by warrior-poet
on July 9, 2019 at 12:40 PM
You seem to be misreading what I stated. What I did was provide generalized guesses based on averages, including a range of possible temperatures, from cold to warm. I in no way stated “the temperatures for the entire state”. More importantly to the point I was arguing against, the pool was heated! i.e., it doesn’t matter if it was a bit cool outside because it’s stated right in the show that it’s a heated pool. But we know for a fact it was cool because there’s steam drifting off the pool, which it wouldn’t do if the air wasn’t cool (probably around 50 degrees, which is why I concluded that rough estimate).
Absolutely correct. This actually supports my argument that what we see is plausible, especially with a heated pool!
I didn’t make anything up at all. I pulled my information directly from historical record. As I stated, the first proposed site for 911 activation was Huntington, Indiana by AT&T. However, Haleyville, Alabama ended up getting it first via the Alabama Telephone Company, which wanted to beat AT&T to the punch. The fact remains that in 1979 only 26% of the country had 911 availability, and only 17% in 1977, which are actual statistics (see the websites below). Even by 1987 only 50% of the country had it. At that pace, we can only make an educated guess, but Indiana could have had as much as half the state with 911 by 1983, although that’s probably a bit generous, and large population centers would have got it first.
A small town with a population of around 30,000 like Hawkins could have had it, even if not very probable statistically, i.e. its reasonable that it did have 911, especially since it’s a fictional town and story, which is why I personally don’t find it problematic. Again, unlikely but possible. A slim chance is still a chance. Which is why my argument was that its plausible, and why I argued against the blanket statement of “911 wasn’t available in 1983”. It absolutely was in some areas.
But did the fictional town of Hawkins, Indiana have 911 in 1983? It sure did! Why? Because we empirically observe Will call 911. Therefore, it had it. In other words, even though a very slim chance probabilistically when compared to our real world, Hawkins clearly fell outside of that margin of improbability.
https://www.nena.org/page/911overviewfacts
https://www.cityofmadison.com/fire/blog/on-this-day-in-history-the-first-911-call-is-placed-in-1968
https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-911-emergency-calls-4075420
Hawkins is indeed small, but not tiny or completely rural. They have a small downtown just like the town I grew up in of Jefferson City, MO. One mall (yes with a theater), a standalone theater, a couple of arcades, a Walmart, etc. Fictional Hawkins was small with an estimated population of about 30,000 (see the link below where it quite literally states, and I quote, “Hawkins is a small Midwestern town located in Roane County in the state of Indiana, with an estimated population of 30,000”). I’ll repeat: “small Midwestern town”. Right from the horse’s mouth.
But yes they could have a mall, which it should be noted doesn’t appear until season 3 (1985). Meaning, before 1985 Hawkins didn’t have a mall, so your argument pertaining to it having a mall doesn’t really apply to my original post, which is about Season 1. But compare Hawkins’ 30,000 or Jeff City to Kansas City where I live now at just under half a million back in 1983. And even KC was/is much smaller compared to much larger cities. So yes, Hawkins would be considered comparably “small”, but that’s no reason to think they wouldn’t build a mall, especially in the mid-80’s. Many small (not tiny) towns had them.
https://strangerthings.fandom.com/wiki/Hawkins
You’re absolutely right about this, which is why this is probably a legit anachronistic occurrence in the show. I personally don’t care because it’s a fictionalized representation of a fantasy world, but if compared to our real history, it’s a miss.
It was a thing that cropped up in the 90’s, gained a little steam in the 2000’s, then petered out to almost nothing in the 2010’s. It’s definitely out of place in the show, although one could argue I suppose that it was something the character just came up with on the spot since it only occurs one time throughout the entire run.
I wasn’t sure myself so did the research (just like I always do, i.e. I don’t state something unless I already know it’s accurate based on the best information I can find) back when posting them on IMDB just after watching Season 1. The word “stalker” existed of course, but it wasn’t used within the same context as it is today. It wasn’t used by the legal system or used in this very specific way in popular nomenclature until 1991. Various celebrity stalking incidents in the late 80’s resulted in “anti-stalking” laws kicked off in California in 1990 (and most states followed suite throughout the 90’s), culminating in an official adjective first used legally in 1991 to specifically describe a perpetrator stalking a victim for nefarious purposes of rape or murder (as opposed to more generalized usage of “stalker” prior to that time of stalking while hunting, playing, or any other activity, etc.)
Here’s is Dictonary.com’s definition of “stalker:
stalker n. early 15c., "a poacher;" also "one who prowls for purposes of theft" (c.1500), agent noun from stalk (v.1). Meaning "obsessive harasser" is from early 1990s.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/stalker
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/stalker
https://www.britannica.com/topic/stalking-crime
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Stalking
In other words pre-1990’s a “stalker” was someone who “stalked”, i.e. snuck along for any reason, while post 90’s a “stalker” become more synonymous specifically with a harasser and potential rapist or murderer following a victim.
Reply by Kylopod
on July 9, 2019 at 2:36 PM
There's one element from Season 3 that had me wondering whether they were using a word anachronistically. I'm referring to the scene where the two kids get into an argument over who's a bigger nerd, and the boy cites his knowledge of My Little Pony as proof of his nerd credentials. I was a child in the '80s, though I'm slightly younger than the kid characters on the show (I was born in 1977), and from what I can remember, "nerd" was almost exclusively an insulting term; the concept of nerd culture didn't start to develop until later--the '90s at minimum. And definitely, his use of the phrase "standard nerd tropes" sounded extremely 21st-century. Were "tropes" even a thing before the 2010s?
Or maybe I'm misremembering.
Reply by warrior-poet
on July 10, 2019 at 12:43 AM
Yeah that was indeed a little out of place. Bronies (male fans of My Little Pony), for example, didn't really happen until the more recent version aired in 2010. This definitely wasn't a thing even an out of the closet male nerd would speak of proudly in the 80's. They've blended the much more recent Brony phenomenon into the 80's nostalgia, and incorrectly so.
With one foot in the nerd world back in the 80's I did see plenty of "nerds" boasting what today might be referred to as "nerd cred" in arguments about pen and paper RPG knowledge, sci-fi and fantasy novel trivia, whether Superman could beat the Hulk, etc. I engaged in a few of those discussions myself. But not once did they ever refer to themselves as "nerds", nor did they ever use the phrase "nerd cred", if that's something actually stated in the Stranger Things (if you can confirm if it was or not--I haven't reviewed the episode and don't specifically recall). Definitely no one uttered the phrase "standard nerd tropes".
Speaking of "tropes", its a very old word but the common use you're referring to didn't really happen until the internet age. So yeah, using the term in that context in the 80's is very out of place.
Caleb's sister calling them nerds fits into the era just fine, but you're right that the way their discussion was presented is out of place and is more representative of a cultural shift that may have started to take shape in the 90's with success stories like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs becoming widely known but wasn't really a thing until the 2000's, possibly in part bolstered by "nerd" stories being turned into mainstream cinema like the "Lord Of The Rings" films, enhanced further by success stories like Mark Zuckerberg with Facebook, and then Iron Man in 2008 and the subsequent MCU movies, etc. on top of computer technology becoming so dominate.
So I would submit that the intent of the scene you're referring to isn't itself out of place (i.e. nerds challenging each other about nerd knowledge), but the verbiage and how it's presented definitely has anachronistic elements.
Reply by Kylopod
on July 10, 2019 at 5:59 AM
Yeah, that was my point: nerds may have had a sort of culture in the '80s, but they didn't call it nerd culture. And in fact they wouldn't necessarily have been referred to as nerds at all back then. Nerdiness had more to do with the idea of being a social oddball or outcast than with what you were "into." Look at the Revenge of the Nerds movies, for instance. I haven't seen them in a long time, but to my recollection none of the titular characters were devotees of comic books or video games or cult TV shows. They were just guys who dressed and talked funny and had trouble picking up chicks. That's more or less what the word "nerd" meant back then. The Trekkies and Tolkien fans were around, and many of them might have been called nerds at one point or another, but they didn't embody the very definition of the term yet.
As you point out, the evolution of the word was part of a cultural shift, as many of the things nerds were associated with became more mainstream. What does it even mean to be a "computer nerd" these days? Computers are just not anywhere near as niche as they used to be, not when you have an entire generation who grew up on smartphones, tablets, and the Internet.
I didn't mean to imply that the phrase "nerd cred" was used on the show. That was my phrase. He did, however, definitely use the phrase "standard nerd tropes." The scene in question is here, and he says it around 1:52:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhvLF8eDPCY
This is definitely the modern, Internet-era sense of the word "trope," rather than the older meaning of the term. I'd hazard to guess nobody in the '80s ever uttered the words "nerd tropes" together as one phrase. It just wouldn't have made sense to people back then.
Reply by warrior-poet
on July 10, 2019 at 6:11 AM
Well said, and thanks for clarifying that one phrase. I couldn't recall for sure and was too lazy to go back and find it :)
I would argue one point, however. They were indeed at least in some circles referred to in such terms, just in a much more negative manner by those not in that clique (thus movies like "Revenge Of The Nerds"). And they would not have proudly referred to themselves as such, or proudly categorized themselves that way in an open manner as is seen today. So while words like nerd, geek, dweeb. etc. were used in a more derogatory manner to describe kids that were deemed to fit the category, today those terms have a more neutral if not positive vibe. Everything changes in time.
Honestly they do pretty well with the show overall mimicking the feel of the 80's era (as it was presented in cinema and TV). And I don't really mind small nitpicky anachronisms getting missed or being intentionally thrown in with a wink. But this scene is one that stood out as without doubt venturing outside the scope of the type of conversation that would occur in the 80's among so-called "nerds" so I'm glad you brought it up.
Reply by chrisjdel
on July 10, 2019 at 6:40 AM
Nerds, geeks, dorks, dweebs - all were terms used to describe the uncool smart kids at my school. Nerd was the most common though. If you were into computers and comic books, or were in the chess club, you were a nerd and sat at their table during lunch. They often did have girlfriends/boyfriends actually. Nerds dated each other. Kids who were antisocial but not especially smart were called outcasts (very little euphemistic language in the 80's). You had your popular kids, the jocks, the druggies, the burnouts (future inmates), and all the general population who were too average for a label. But "nerd" carried the definite implication of being intellectual, not to mention easily bullied.
What's happened in recent years is, nerds are no longer uncool the same way they used to be. Their status in the teenage social pecking order has gone up. Hardly surprising in a world increasingly dominated by technology.
Reply by Kylopod
on July 10, 2019 at 4:00 PM
The show falls in a tradition of shows and films where the characters self-consciously mention and poke fun at the genre conventions they're encountering, almost as if they're aware they're in a work of fiction. This type of internal, humorous meta-commentary goes back a long way, but it really started to become popular in the 1990s--the Scream films were a formative example, and the term "meta" itself first came to be widely used in a pop-culture context around this period. The kids' conversation about "nerd tropes" has all the qualities of this kind of self-referencing. If it's anachronistic, then it's in a particular category of deliberate but subtle anachronisms that are put in as a kind of wink at the audience, like when Vizzini from The Princess Bride says "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." So I'd say the show isn't even trying to be a 100% accurate recreation of the period, it's also about how we think about it today, where we not only look nostalgically at the past but meditate on the nature of our meditating in an endless recursive loop--and then meditate on that.
Reply by warrior-poet
on July 16, 2019 at 10:50 AM
Very good point!