Look I know you probably love these movies and series. But after seeing over 30,000 movies and thousands of series (including all episodes of every Star Trek series that has been released TOS,TAS,TNG,DS9,VOY,ENT,DISC and all 13 movies) I know bad writing from good writing, bad acting from poor acting or when a film's structure is a mess I don't need to be told when those are the problem that me not liking it because of females or gender fluid characters was the reason I didn't like it (while I usually tend to cut films some slack or not get wound up too much about mistakes). But come on that the producers of the film studios might be so dumb to think that but I can't believe that still after I pointed out all the problems not related to race or gender these movies and this serie have you still insist that I and fans that share these same issues don't understand it or are not willing to give it a chance because of females/gender fluid characters(characters would be an insult to the word character in many of these cases)? Because that is the biggest bunch of horseshit I've ever heard as argument .And the fact that in season 2 things are starting to look they are moving the show to a more Star Trek like series after Les Moonves and the majority of the principle writers got sacked is a sign on the wall that the criticism was actually right and that the former producers made a mess of the first season.And I am actually willing to give the show a chance and have watched both season 1 and 2 and notice that the difference between them is like night and day and actually start liking the show and to prove I have nothing against female characters one of the most memorable characters of episode four of season 2 was that grumpy technician who got into this very comic argument about the spore drive(something I put on a pizza lol)she was a real revelation and my advise to the writers and producers is tha they should make her a frequent character because she was hilarious. .

@Nexus71 said:

Look I know you probably love these movies and series. But after seeing over 30,000 movies and thousands of series (including all episodes of every Star Trek series that has been released TOS,TAS,TNG,DS9,VOY,ENT,DISC and all 13 movies) I know bad writing from good writing, bad acting from poor acting or when a film's structure is a mess I don't need to be told when those are the problem that me not liking it because of females or gender fluid characters was the reason I didn't like it (while I usually tend to cut films some slack or not get wound up too much about mistakes). But come on that the producers of the film studios might be so dumb to think that but I can't believe that still after I pointed out all the problems not related to race or gender these movies and this serie have you still insist that I and fans that share these same issues don't understand it or are not willing to give it a chance because of females/gender fluid characters(characters would be an insult to the word character in many of these cases)? Because that is the biggest bunch of horseshit I've ever heard as argument .And the fact that in season 2 things are starting to look they are moving the show to a more Star Trek like series after Les Moonves and the majority of the principle writers got sacked is a sign on the wall that the criticism was actually right and that the former producers made a mess of the first season.And I am actually willing to give the show a chance and have watched both season 1 and 2 and notice that the difference between them is like night and day and actually start liking the show and to prove I have nothing against female characters one of the most memorable characters of episode four of season 2 was that grumpy technician who got into this very comic argument about the spore drive(something I put on a pizza lol)she was a real revelation and my advise to the writers and producers is tha they should make her a frequent character because she was hilarious. .

"Yes, but you only like her because she was a non-threatening female victim of oppression and didn't challenge your masculine self-image..." blah blah blah

Hahahahahahahaaaa! Look at me, I'm Invidia!

I have no issue with Starbuck not in the original BSG or the reboot BSG .I just not a fan of the reboot BSG Starbuck ,because she was behaving like a dick even to the ones that love or care about her,to full of herself,disobedient and disrespectful to the chain of command,undisciplined,not able to admit when she's wrong it may made for a better story but sympathetic NO and since the original Starbuck was more sympathetic and despite having the disadvantage of the 70's writing I tend to prefer him as well.As you can read it has nothing to do with Starbuck being female but the way they had witten and presented her.Also if one does accept the religious ending of the reboot.It brings up a lot of questions about that God since Baltar (a traitor of his own kind) gets to live in some cabin on the hill and frack Caprica six's brains out and Starbuck (one of the least likeable human characters )becomes an angel ,and others who tried to do their best like chief Tyrol end up with nothing,what kind of fracked up God or religion is that? Like I said previously there is good and bad in both versions of BSG but having a female Starbuck is not one of the issues I have with the reboot.

And it's funny that somebody previously wrote that people didn't like ENT and why it had failed because it was following the usual Star Trek hopeful and optimistic view while one of the criticisms at the time was that they didn't like ENT because it was so dark and gloomy.

How and WHY was the MALE more SYMPATHETIC??

He was kind,emphatic,loyal to a fault,unselfish enough to sacrifice himself if he thought the cause was just even if that had no importance to the colonial fleet,happy go lucky,brave,inventive,humble enough to acknowledge his mistakes and willing to sacrifice his life for the ones he loves(like when Apollo was killed by count Iblis when on board of the ship of light he offered the beings of light to take his life for that of Apollo).

Did we ever get the kind of BACKSTORY on the MALE that we got with the FEMALE?? Because her BACKSTORY also illustrates the reason WHY she had problems with certain kinds of AUTHORITY figures.

Not much is known of his past since he was orphaned when he was still small but all seems to indicate Adama adopted him and considers him to be like a son and Apollo considers him to be a brother.His father was this gambler and scam man (Fred Astaire),He's an ace pilot(only surpassed by Sheeba),a connaisseur of fine Ambrosia and fumaroles,a good pyramid card player(pyramid is a card game not a football game which was called Triad in the original),and an avid Triad player.He crashed and got stranded on a planet and managed to make peace with a Cylon and sacrificed his only means back to Galactica to an unknown woman( who he and his Cylon friend helped giving birth) and baby Dr. Zues who became the smartest guy in the fleet(and is hinted to be a child of the beings of light).

It might give an explanation why she behaves the way she does but in my eyes it doesn't make her more sympathetic.Did I also mention she was irresponsible since it was her that gave Zack his wings when he just wasn't good enough (out of love?What the frack she disregards everybody else that loves her or cares about her but with the man she actually loves she doesn't WTF?)and caused him getting killed because his father assumed he had gone through training successfully which caused a massive rift between him and Lee Adama (because he blamed his father for Zack's death)only confessing it years after the fact.

What gives you the impression she was AN ANGEL???

Well since the fourth and final season and finale seem to imply heavy religious implications and that all this is because GOD or the Gods wanted it.Plus we see Starbuck and her viper get destroyed completely and but she returns in exactely the same viper and she is tested not being a Cylon. Also for the finale to make sense the only explanation is that she was an angel or a ghost at least it is what is heavily hinted at throughout the series(the drawings of the mealstrom in her apartment where she dies,her hearing all along the watchtower like the final five while not being a Cylon or part of the final five,Leoben's fascination with her etc)

Also there are some loose ends even with the God did it explanation for example the prophecy of the hybrid on board the basestar at the end of Razor that warns that Starbuck will be the end of mankind(or something in that manner) but it was a warning (which we if we play the Razor in it chronological place (during season 2) we according to the playlist should skip because of this big reveal (not))

Wasn't TYROL also one of the FINAL FIVE CYLONS???

Yes Tyrol was but that guy has nothing but bad luck.His first partner Boomer/ Sharon turns out to be a Cylon sleeper and comes close in killing Adama,she get shot by Callie.His second partner Callie has his child which turns out to be somebody's else child,Callie get blown out of the airlock(because she finds out who the final four are)by one of the final five the one who is an an aide of Roslin played by the actress who is also on some episodes of DISC,After he finds out she killed Callie he kills her and gets as a technician left alone on Earth (our Earth) after everybody has sworn off technology,really if one character gets fracked all the time it's Tyrol.

Ok. These sound much more like the TRAITS of APOLLO than they do Starbuck who had LOTS of FAULTS that you haven't mentioned (which is also the reason why one REMEMBERS him mostly as a SKIRT CHASER who kept upsetting the female characters he got involved with. But since you're right about how he was willing to sacrifice himself for Apollo we'll over look that part of his personality for now.

That is what is often assumed since he is often is seen in the company of good looking women,BUT if you look at TOS Starbuck more closely as I have (having the complete original series (often with added material that was originally cut out)and the complete BSG80 series).one discovers there is more to Starbuck then the skirt chaser he is known for and you will find he has far more enduring qualities than he is given credit for like loyalty (examples when the counsel of 12 is wiling to lay down arms to stay on that pleasure planet controlled by those insect creatures and propose peace with Cylons ,he remains loyal to Adama who is very apprehensive about laying down arms because he suspects a trap,when Apollo gets lost he was the first to volunteer to look for him and the last to give up ,when one of the pilots of his squadron gets shot down by the Cylon pulsar weapon and is captures ,Starbuck moves heaven and Earth to find him and liberate him from captivity)But his is just some of many things I remember about TOS Starbuck(not heaving read anything on wikipedia or other sources *what I talked about was from pure memory just like what I wrote down about Starbuck from the reboot *(remember I have my annual old en new BSG binge so I'v watched both series multiple time .

but nonetheless manages to crash a Viper four times, in "Saga of a Star World," "The Long Patrol," "The Young Warriors," "The Return of Starbuck," to crash a shuttle at least once, in "The Gun on Ice Planet Zero," or get into a difficult situation in a dogfight.

Saga of a Star World;Starbuck crashes because he's out of fuel and engaging a superior Cylon attack force since Galactica sped off while his squadron was engaged with a superior Cylon force of vipers and basestars (Galactica sped off to Caprica because Adama recognized the trap ,which had left the colonies open for attack)

The Long Patrol,: Starbuck doesn't crash in this episode his prototype gets stolen when after aiding an Ambrosia smuggler being attack by "the local space police" he is knocked down by cet smuggler while sampling some fine Ambrosia .He gets caught by the space police and is brought to a prison planet where punishment is hereditary he helps the prisoners escape and recovers his viper(with the aid of Apollo&Boomer) and with some fancy flying (the prototype doesn't carry arms) manages to let a space police craft crash on a supply few thousand gallons of 1,000 yahren old Ambrosia(much to Starbuck's dismay)he also recognizes the importance of a drawing on his cell wall which seems to be a depiction(as he later finds out) of our solar system.(so now we know where the idea of the painting on Starbuck's wall came from in the reboot)

The Young Lords; Starbuck was shot down after being ambushed in a sector where no one had expected Cylons.He helps a group of minors (who had rescued him from capture)in liberating their father from Cylon captivity.

The Gun on Ice Planet Zero,;Yes he crashes after a Cylon viper blows a huge hole in the shuttles hull ,but still manages to land without killing anybody and with the task force stil able to continue their mission in destroying the pulsar plus saving a pilot from Cylon captivity and being interrogated about Galactica and the fleet.

The Return of Starbuck; Yes he crashes after being shot down in a 3-1 confrontation.Where he befriends the Cylon pilot he shot down and they find Angela (pregnant with dr. Zeus)they deliver her baby (in which he admits the Cylon way is better) they build a new spacecraft from the scraps of the viper and the Cylon raider.His buddy Cy (the Cylon) is shot down when he is protecting Angela and her baby escape to Galactica against a Cylon patrol Starbuck shoots down the remaining Cylon while the spacecraft is flying away to Galactica leaving Starbuck alone on the planet.(in that episode we dom 't se him being rescued by the beings of light from what I saw in BSG 80 both Starbuck and Apollo went missing in action.

But it actually would have been a nice touch if Starbuck had been rescued (and was a being of light)it would have provided a great opportunity to make old Starbuck the father of Kara Thrace(and the man playing the piano)it would have provided a great way to connect both series and to also serve as a satisfactory explanation why Kara Thrace dies and is reborn and why she vanished in the final episode(she was born a daughter of the beings of light and all that she goes through is sort of a test,rite of passage or ritual before becoming a full being of light(Geez I should have written the script for the reboot)/Also this script would be in the spirit of the series underlying theme of "This has happened before and will happen again"

What I discovered is that the original was not that shallow as is given credit for and that we tend to look at the series from a present perspective ,because in many ways the show was ahead of it's time It showed a mixed race cast and women performing roles other than love interests.Cassiopeia was a nurse,Athena was a fighter pilot/flight operations officer at the bridge and we see various women on the bridge and as viper pilots,Sheeba was a squadron leader of Pegasus's top squadron and was a formidable viper pilot even beter than Starbuck and Apollo.And what is often assumed that certain topics ,like the religion,the lingo (like frack and felgercarb(BS)) and other aspects was an invention of the reboot was actually from the original .Also some things were never revealed (because certain scenes were cut out )we learn that Apollo's wife Sarena who is shot down and dies when on mission on Kobol, would have died anyway because she had eaten food supplies that were poisoned with solonoid radiation.The problem of food supplies is dealt with in several episodes ,there is an episode about corruption (where Starbuck is suspect of murder) etc etc. The Terra related episodes share some similarities with the reboot BSG Earth apart from a heavy Cold War (USA vs USSR ) analogy.

Yes it was OUT of LOVE that she passed him when she should not have, because she also knew that as the COMMANDER's son what kind of PRESSURE he was under to succeed, and how much HUMILIATION he would have endured if she had FAILED him instead of letting him pass. And she probably also FEARED it would cause a FIGHT between them that might lead to a BREAK UP. Or it might also cause ADAMA to come down on her for NOT PASSING his son.

If those were her concerns and when she is not able to make the right decisions as a trainer.It shows that she was unfit for her position She failed in her responsibilities as his superior and was afraid to make the hard decisions that come with the responsibilities of being in command.She also failed on the field of that as a person in command you should be able to make unbiased decisions if that means disappointing your lover or his father tough luck your prime concerns should always be the quality (and safety) of your crew and fleet.

Ok. Since ADAMA was the ONE in COMMAND, WHY the hell would he let his SON take the test from his GIRLFRIEND in the FIRST PLACE???

Adama didn't know Starbuck was Zack's girlfriend he had never met her until Zack's funeral where he had asked whether she and Zack were close where Starbuck confirmed his suspicions.

Since almost Everyone also knows it's better to HIRE someone else to teach one's teenager how to drive a CAR, ADAMA should also have KNOWN better than to let HER teach his son how to fly.

See previous reply.

It's similar to the way a doctor also KNOWS better than to OPERATE on a member of their own family (due to the way they're too EMOTIONALLY attached to them to risk SCREWING UP).

So in this case ADAMA should also have TAKEN SOME RESPONSIBILITY for this situation and have KNOWN BETTER than to let his SON take LESSONS from his GIRLFRIEND.

One also wouldn't TAKE LESSONS from a PROFESSOR if they were one's WIFE or HUSBAND (because if one of them got a FAILING grade that could also cause a BIG FIGHT or a BREAK UP between them).

All this again see previous reply he didn't know of their relationship until Zack's funeral Adama had only noted in Zack's letters the affection and friendship he had for Kara.

So instead of having his HUGE HISSY FIT over it, ADAMA should also have offered her an APOLOGY for letting such a situation take place in the FIRST PLACE.

Why should he apologize for something of which he had no knowledge or had at best had suspicions about? Kara should have confessed to him that it was her fault at his funeral and not x number of years later and after the destruction of the colonies when there was nothing more to loose for either of them which to me seems to be a slight hand of opportunism on Kara's behalf as well that one wonders that if the colonies had not been destroyed would she have told Adama at all?Adama has the right to be furious with here because their friendship had been based of false assumptions and lies.Kara should be glad that Adama didn't put her in the airlock and have her shot away(like he threatened to do if she was not going to resume her duty in training the rookies,with whom she also was very very arrogant and abusive while also showing being unfit for command).

That was the CYLON POV, but once they discovered one of the other characters (Tigh's girlfriend) had CREATED THEM, then how could the GOD ISSUE still continue after that??? Because that also means NO GOD had created them (unless you want to assume she was some kind of a GODDESS).

Ellen Tigh (Saul 's wife) was indeed responsible for the creation of the skinjobs but she was not the one who ordered the destruction of the colonies.Remember it was the discovery of the final five that lead to the end of the previous Cylon(the toaster model)-Human war where hostilities suddenly seized and the Cylons offered peace even though by that point of the war the Colonies were losing the war. In Razor,The Plan and Blood and Chrome we discover that the Cylons had been experimenting with Human/Cylon hybrids for a while but unsuccessful until the discovery of the final five from Earth(mark I)who offered heir knowledge of genetics and bio genetics and the reïncarnation technology in exchange for the Cylons making peace with the colonies since humans were direct descendants from the Lords of Kobol who are the descendants from the 13th tribe Earth Mark I like them.They created the various skinjob models each model with a specific and unique quality.But the Cylons (and skinjobs) because of their religious imprint(remember Caprica )and the model one Calvin in particular became increasingly disgusted in how the humans had drifted from their principle religion also they viewed them inferior and that they were more deserving of God's (in indirectly the final five)praise.So Calvin tampered with their reincarnation/regenerative pods wiped their memories and planted them on the colonies.And many years later it was Calvin models that finally persuaded the other Cylon models that they would be doing God's bidding in destroying the colonies as punishment for their Godless ways.

Which could also mean she also had an ENCOUNTER with a SHIP of LIGHT like Apollo did in TOS. Or it could mean LEOBEN who was so IN LOVE with her used the OVARY they removed from her body to create another copy of STARBUCK. Or they may also have CLONED her. Or it could also have been some kind of HOLOGRAPHIC PROJECT that vanished into THIN AIR.

Which would make sense if they had shown these ships of light existing (and it were Starbuck ,Apollo and Sheeba that were on board there actually Starbuck and Apollo encounter the beings of light twice later in the Terra episodes they play a part as well).If such was the case Starbuck should have tested partly Cylon but it was previously established that cloning was not something the Cylons had mastered it seems unlikely that she was a clone (but that still wouldn't explain her vanishing)they may have stil been experimenting with embryo's and ovaries but were unsuccessful this is why the conception between Helo and Boomer /Athena was so important to them it was the first time ever that a Cylon/human baby was born that had survived.Also conception between the skinjob Cylons was impossible resulting in the baby dying before it was born(the Saul Tigh /Caprica 6 model baby).Also cloning might have given the Cylons some religious considerations to overcome.And holographic projection from where they had just denounced technology?

Since only the CYLONS could hear it, if she also hears the WATCHTOWER song, what that seems to imply is someone also created a COPY of her as a CYLON. And after the way LEOBEN held her HOSTAGE he'd also be CRAZY enough to do such a thing.

If such had been the case then it should have showed up on Baltar's Cylon detector that she is part Cylon.Also the final five are the only ones who hear the song (the toaster and skinjob Cylons don't hear it) and since this implies the connection Earth mark I and the final five (as the place of their origin) therefore this implies Starbuck has this connection as well with Earth I despite not being one of the final five.Both Starbuck and the final five are linked with the thirteenth tribe and Earth I is were the thirteenth tribe lived.

Isn't the PAINTING in her APT also the remains of a STAR that's gone SUPERNOVA???

I found the mandala painting eerily similar to the nebula /storm where she "dies" like a sign of predestination which is another religious concept.

But IF he has no TIME LIMIT upon his LIFESPAN that also means he has PLENTY of TIME left for his LUCK to change and for him to have BETTER LUCK from that TIME forward.

Yeah but all alone Saul was with Ellen on Earth mark II ,Anders flew into the Sun and the other female was killed by Tyrol himself for murdering his wife Callie.A bit sour isn't it,he can't reproduce and the job he has done for the last 20 years (being a technician) is useless in a society that has denounced technology.

In other words, you may not have PALAGERIZED what you said, but since it's got so much IN COMMON with what you said, one also suspects that (like the case is with KNIX) you also couldn't RECALL anything about him to say without having read what others said about him

I haven't read any of the stuff you wrote down all was written from memory as was what was written here above.I am very familiar with both series.

And since EVERYTHING that's been said about the FEMALE character also came from MEMORY without needing to LOOK IT UP, imo, that also PROVES she's a BETTER and MORE MEMORABLE character than the MALE one.

Sure her character is more fleshed out than the original so there is more to remember and certainly has a more interesting character arc ,but like I previously said more likeable NO.my sympathies lie more with Helo and Boomer/Athena.Like I said previously I don't like Starbuck because she was woman but because of how her character was written and sure she may have her reasons to behave the way she doesn't that doesn't immediately mean that I find her sympathetic.

And since it also describes how the MALE VERSION became a LIGHT BEING (or a member of their CREW on their ship), that also seems to IMPLY that the FEMALE may have also become a LIGHT BEING as well (even though there was also never an 80 version of the show where that takes place).

Starbuck was never really a being of light the beings of light made him appear as somebody else familiar to Dale from Flash Gordon.But it still would have been a good explanation if they had shown or mentioned these beings of light in the reboot,they didn't so it kind of excludes that.Plus Miles from Knight Rider that they were not gods or devine creatures they were similar to the humans lie Starbuck just far more advanced although they do seem to represent the forces of light and good in the ancient conflict with the forces of the dark and evil (Count Iblis) we only view upon them as gods because they are way more advanced,

Since The EARTH section of the CHARACTER HISTORY also indicates LEOBEN didn't know what she was, that also means the LIGHT BEING THEORY seems more plausible than having LEOBEN CLONE her or make a COPY of her using the OVARY they STOLE from her:

Of course Leoben doesn't know he is a Cylon skinjob and is not connected to Earth mark I like the final five and Starbuck.

But judging from what you write it seems that you very much like Starbuck and that is fine by me Invidia I found her engaging and her story interesting,but to go so far as to say that I like her,I am sorry but I have to reply negative,it's just a matter of taste and tastes differ.And I like both series each for it's own reasons .

Sorry but I think you are mistaken Zack was not under the command of Adama .He was on some sort of academy(like Starfleet)Adama was in command of Glactica when his son died .He was not in direct contact with him since he was at the Academy it is there were Zack and Starbuck met where she was his instructor .Also Adama and Zack and Lee's mother were divorced so Adama was probably on some mission while his son died after getting his wings at the academy but he was not under his command(this also explains why Zack sent his father letters).And from what I understand between the relation with his son Lee(Apollo) that he felt that Zack felt he had to prove himself to his father by becoming a viper pilot while Adama never had promoted the idea that his sons should follow in his footsteps ,But since Lee had already become a viper pilot he felt extra motivation in joining the academy.It seems like that both Zack and Lee and their father had grown apart because of the divorce of the parents .Zack felt that by joining it would make these bonds stronger again.So if Adama hardly had any contact with his sons due to a divorce and only had contact with Zack on a regular basis through letter he wrote to Adama.

Did it ever occur to you that STARBUCK may also have come back as a LIGHT BEING again? Didn't all 3 of them have MEMORY LAPSE of some kind that may indicate that's what happened to them??? So perhaps you're theory may also have happened???

Within the context of the reboot BSG not like I said in the reboot these beings of light never made an appearance and since we must assume that Ron D Moore wrote a story that is self contained and had no connections with the original series these beings of lights don't exist in the reboot version otherwise they would have made an appearance throughout the four(and a half seasons and movies).Otherwise thinking that Starbuck was a being of light also if Starbuck had been a being of light there would have been the wreck of Starbuck's viper with Starbuck's burned remains inside of it .Like I said introducing the beings of light would have made far more sense than with the explanation we were given at the end of Daybreak.Also the show should have ended at Sometimes A Great Notion having that as the end of the series would have made far more sense than Daybreak.

And WHAT ABOUT LEE ADAMA??? Are you also going to TELL ME HE DIDN'T KNOW his OWN brother was having an AFFAIR with her??? As soon as he knew about it he should also have REPORTED it to his father so he could have had someone else INSTRUCT his son instead of her.

Lee did know about the relationship between his brother and Starbuck but he didn't know that Starbuck had given his brother wings while he was unfit to fly a viper,she told Lee only prior to an assault in one of the early episodes of season 1 .Lee was furious about this since he always lay the majority of the blame for Zack's death with his father since he unjustly felt that Zack felt it was his duty to follow a career as a viper pilot like Adama but also to have a closer bond with his father after the divorce of Adama and his mother..But the reason he died mainly because Zack was unfit and because Starbuck cut him some slack she got him into a situation he should have not been in if Starbuck had done her job properly.

NEITHER ADAMA nor his OTHER SON who DATES her after the death of his BROTHER are INNOCENT in this matter due to the way BOTH of them were also in SUPERVISORY ROLES and had COMMAND over her.

They both were innocent since neither of them knew what the real reason was why Zack died and the main reason why he was killed because he was unfit to fly vipers which as an instructor is the sole responsibility of Starbuck. Simply put if Starbuck would have not given Zack his wings he would probably have still been alive around the time the Cylons attacked the Colonies.Zack probably would have had a civilian job or a role in the military not involving flying vipers.He probably would have been kiled in the Attack on Caprica but still alive also one could wonder if the relationship between Adama and Starbuck be that close and the relationship between Adama and Lee would be less tense.

ADAMA was the one being EXTREMELY ARROGANT with her when it was also HIS FAULT for not SUPERVISING her and his OWN SON PROPERLY enough.

again see comment above Adama was never in command of his son.

What's more, HE should also NEVER have been IN COMMAND of his OWN SON either (who should also have been UNDER the COMMAND of someone else).

And again the responsibility fully lies with Starbuck if Zack had been viper pilot material he would have probably known what to do when he got into an accident but he died so he clearly didn't and was unfit as viper pilot.Zack solely died because of Starbuck neglected in taking her responsibilities more serious which would have allowed her to make a maybe hard ,unbiased decision that her boyfriend wasn't viper pilot material.I now you adore Starbuck Invidia but that shouldn't prevent you looking at the evidence that is before you.Because of love Starbuck screwed up and it cost her , Adama and Lee dearly which was only worsened by the fact that both had placed their trust in her which in the end were based on fase assumptions and lies by Starbuck.She screwed up by allowing her boyfriend to fly a viper while being unfit and secondly she lied about it to his father and brother.

So HOW was ELLEN able to even have the TECHNOLOGY to MAKE the FINAL FIVE CYLONS???

Ellen Tigh didn't make the final five ,Ellen Tigh was part of the final five ,they made the skinjob Cylons nothing else.The final five are the last survivors of Earth (1.0) they left Earth after inventing the reincarnation technology which enabled them to cross the vast distance of space ,they had not invented FTL travel so their journey took thousands of years before they were finally found by the Cylons.

Yes but again, HOW is it possible GOD CREATED them when ELLEN is the one who did it??? None of that MAKES any sense that they'd worship some GOD and think HE created them when ELLEN did.

Ellen Tigh had nothing to do with the creation of the final five,the Cylons revered them not because they considered them Gods but because they were the last survivors of the lost thirteenth tribe(which is probably the closest thing to God for the Cylons).For this god thing and the Cylons you will have to watch Caprica where the origins story of the Cylons(the toaster model/but also a prototype skinjob)is explained and where the origins of this religious imprint of the original Cylons came from.(Because Graystone downloaded the memories of his daughter from the VR world into his prototyope skinjob he made of his daughter.his daughter had been part of this extremist religious group by which she was killed during a terrorist attack while her memories remained stored in VR world.These downloads were stolen and the programming was used to serve as a basis needed for programming the Cylons to work(it's a literal ghost in the machine).

IF she was a LIGHT BEING she wouldn't be a CYLON. She'd be another type of BEING. Because CYLONS are also still PHYSICAL BEINGS that can't just DISAPPEAR into THIN AIR. Being a LIGHT BEING also implies one is a SPIRITUAL BEING and no longer in a PHYSICAL STATE anymore.

Yes I agree it would have made more sense if she was one of those being of lights,but as I said before they never show up or were even mentioned in the reboot series so to take something from the original that was not part of the reboot as a clue seems to be far fetched.But I agree it would have made things much more clear.

Yes which is why the LIGHT BEING theory MAKES the MOST SENSE. Which may also indicate her SPIRIT was CAPTURED by the LIGHT BEINGS (similar to the way the CYLONS could also DOWNLOAD one's consciousness into another different CYLON BODY once they died).

again see previous comment.

The ENTIRE PROCESS of DOWNLOADING and RESURRECTING them again should also have been CALLED into QUESTION as being against their religion (due to the way their GOD had also not granted them power to do such a thing).

This is why the Cylons needed the final five ,they had invented such technology prior to leaving Earth (1.0) and which enabled them to cross space spanning a period of thousands of years because they had not invented faster than light propulsion.

Baltar probably wasn't even doing what he should have done because he was too busy screwing SIX (and STARBUCK at one point). Remember how he was also TOO LAZY to OVER SEE the other JOB SIX was doing (writing the CODE for the NUKES or something), so he let's SIX do all the work for him (while he was also CHEATING on her with another woman)??? That's also what leads to the ATTACKS on the COLONIES (HELL has NO FURY like a WOMAN SCORNED).

Caprica six (in his head) wanted to teach Baltar a lesson for his disrespect of the Gods and to teach him a lesson in humbleness.Areal Caprica six appears in the "flesh" accusing him for treachery and that is was him who let the Cylons into the defence mainframe with visual proof(which turned out to be fabricated as geeta found out).She disappeared in to the anonymity of the fleet where was able to get her hands on a nuke.But you can't blame Baltar for not knowing where everybody on the fleet is plus I also assume imagined Caprica six was diversion for what was going on with the other Caprica six plus there were several other Cylon sleeper agents on board the fleet(The Plan).

But since STARBUCK only HEARS the SONG as part of a MEMORY of her father having PLAYED IT, that also indicates the VISION of him she sees playing it ON the PIANO could also have been her FATHER visiting her in his LIGHT BEING FORM (which would also VERIFY you're theory).

Maybe but I have to look more closely next time I have my BSG binge,but I always viewed this as the music triggering subconscious memories of her father.Like the memories Lee had when he was floating in space after had to bail out of his craft during a massive offence(the attack on a regeneration ship).

ONCE she DIES (and LEE witnessed it) then she becomes a LIGHT BEING, because one also has to DISCARD the PHYSICAL BODY to become a SPIRITUAL being. So the only time she'd be a LIGHT BEING is AFTER the VIPER crashed (after which she also DISAPPEARS from the show for a long time before she APPEARS again). And that may also mean she was LEE'S VISION (the same way as she had a VISION of he father)??? Or the same way as BALTAR could see SIX but no one else could SEE HER???

Well if she only was in Lee's head how come everybody else sees her.Nobody sees the Caprica six that was in Baltar's head .I thought at a certain moment the writers would introduce a Caprica six model who had visions of Baltar in het mind,which would mirror Baltar's experience with the imagined Caprica six.

DOES it?? I'm not so sure as you are about that. Because we also see BALTAR and SIX at the END of the story READING ABOUT how the DNA of ATHENA's daughter had been discovered thousands of years into the future.

Now you are raising a point that is even more mysterious and interesting than the nature of Starbuck,what or who is Baltar???

But we still also have that other saying about how WHAT THEY ONCE WERE HUMANS WILL BE ONE DAY which also implies we all become LIGHT BEINGS one day (IF we're also able to pass the kind of TEST that the MALE STARBUCK was given).

From what I understand it was meant that humans would have to evolve more as a species also in science and technology(unlike the reboot) before they reached the level of the beings of light.It is not implicated that humans have to pass some rite or tests they just have to evolve further.

Then what was all of that STUFF he said about STANDING on the SHORE but STILL being IN THE STREAM???

The gods made him have that vision,hence my previous comment that several hints were being made throughout the series that hinted at devine influence.

I understand that you really like the new Starbuck and I respect that like I said from a character perspective she was more fleshed out and had an interesting more developed backstory but the original Starbuck had only one season to flesh out his character while the new one had four and a half seasons to do so if the old series would have been given more than one season my guess is that they would have delved more deeply into Starbuck's character.But it was canceled due to it's large production budget ($ 1 million + per episode in 1978 money ,note that a movie like Alien in 1979 costed between 8.5 -10 million to make so that gives you an idea how expensive the show was at the time).And I don't hate the female Starbuck I just don't find her as sympathetic as old Starbuck that's all.If you think that I was trying to persuade you that he was better or that you should like him more like I do that was not my intention I was only trying to explain my opinion why I like the old Starbuck better than the new one it's just an opinion based on tastes and preferences.You have yours I have mine.

But it seems like we have strayed too far from the original topic which was Star Trek Discovery

at the the old IMDB boards for BSG there was this poster called Metatron Fallen that guy knew everything about BSG and had immersed himself completely maybe you should check the old IMDB boards which continued at this site

https://moviechat.org/tt0092455/Star-Trek-The-Next-Generation

In other words, a SMALL RELIGIOUS RIGHT WING MINORITY GROUP has also already RUN AMUCK here in the US and is FORCING their MINORITY VIEWS and AGENDAS upon MOST of the REST of us who DISGREE with them.

Neither is good extremism always bring out the bad in mankind rather than the good whether is left wing or right wing.At least we Dutch learned the art of compromise centuries ago.Having a bit of one and a bit of the other is usually the way things work best.

But since NEX also isn't dealing with this kind of MADNESS over there in his COUNTRY, he also doesn't seem to understand or comprehend the extent or the CONSEQUENCES of it.

Even though I don't have to deal with the issue I can grasp that it has far reaching consequences in the case of other countries.My point was that most interest groups(whether they are right wing or left wing) as a minority in a democratic society you can't demand the extreme things or force them upon the vast majority because that would be against the basic foundations of a constitutional democracy.And you may succeed in forcing down these agendas upon the masses,but being a history buff myself I know that in the end it will cause a massive backlash destroying everything that had already been accomplished prior to the agendas being forced upon the masses.This is almost a historic inevitability.Change will come but it will be slow one can't expect thousands of years of habit being eradicated in a few decades these thins take time.Democracy works on the simple principle that not everybody will be satisfied completely,or rather that nobody is completely satisfied.And when those Greek philosophers wrote that civilization is measured by which manner that civilization treats it's poor and underprivileged I don't think their thought would've be encompassed discussions about gender fluidity or a gender neutral society ,sure the Greeks were no strangers of gay relationships but would condemn such behaviour as self indulgent and something the Persians would do,you see even racisme was no stranger to the old Greeks.

As for the Zack -Starbuck-Adama-Lee backstory I would advice to watch the miniseries.but from what I remember from the flashbacks in the miniseries that Adama didn't even know who Kara Thrace was he met her for the first time during Zack's funeral so why would she feel forced to let Zack pass? Adama only knew of Kara because Zack had written about her in his letters to Adama. And she did lie to Zack when she let him pass I think that Zack would have expected Kara to fairly judged him , not let him pass because he was her boyfriend but she did not tell him the truth that he had actually failed his test. And I don't think you can put the blame the commander of the viper flight school since a man/woman in his/her position usually relies upon the information he/she gets from his/her instructors which would also imply that Starbuck lied to her superior otherwise he/she wouldn't have agreed in passing Zack for flight school.. What is also implied in the miniseries is that because of Zack's death Adama and Starbuck grew closer to each other.So that does raises the question that if Zack had not died whether Adama would have met or at least would have grown so close.And also the other question I raised still stands whether if the Cylon attack would not have happened if she would have told Lee and Adama the truth about her role in Zack's death?Personally I think probably but only many many years later.

And since both STARBUCK's (MALE and FEMALE) also GUIDE them to EARTH by being GIVEN COORDINATES by some kind of LIGHT BEING (if one also assumes that's what her father was), then TNS is also NOT really SELF CONTAINED at all when it PARALLELS what happened in TOS.

Fair point but one can't expect that something that was in the original to apply for the reboot especially since Ron D Moore tried so hard to make his version so much different from the original apart from the original premise.But I have to try and watch the show in a next binge with a keen eye for looking for hints of the beings of light.

Do you mean there WOULD NOT have been her remains??? Because her REMAINS offer us PROOF that she's no longer a PHYSICAL BEING anymore (which also appears to be a requirement before one can assume the SPIRITUAL or LIGHT BEING STATE of existence). In other words, her remains would also CONFIRM the possibility that she's assumed this other NEW FORM of being.

That was something that I always viewed as an indication of devine influences the separation between the physical and spiritual.Since Starbuck obviously died what we see of her is an angelic figurine.Just like Jesus did appear before his apostles after his crucifixion.Which reminds me the cover of the final DVD set has all the main cast members depicted in the same manner as in Da Vinci's The Last Supper(what do you mean religious overtones?).So another hint about the religious Deus Ex Machina ending of Daybreak.

In the scene where she screws CAVIL she told him SHE MADE THEM thinking they would be happy with the way they'd been made. And then he says he'd rather have been FLOATING out in space where he could feel the wind of a SUPERNOVA on him or something else like that instead of being TRAPPED inside of a CYLON body.

I think that the whole Ellen Tigh and Calvin story was a hint at the whole Oedipal thing,Ellen is the mother of the Skinjobs so Calvin is fracking his mother and trying to kill his father (Saul Tigh).Also Calvin in this reboot if you look at it from a religious perspective Calvin also serves as a fallen angel Lucifer figure where Lucifer is trying to persuade the other angels to destroy gods creation Man The Calvin story works in a similar fashion he persuades the other six Cylon skinjob models to rebel and destroy the colonies(against the will of his creators).This is what I meant with the various religious undertones.Calvin was not pleased with the human for he found it to limiting .

During which time TYROL was supposed also happily IN LOVE with TORY.

I believe it was hinted that Tyrol and Tory (T&T) where a couple like Tigh and Ellen.

Pretty sure ELLEN told CAVIL she made them.

She did she designed all models with the Daniel model being destroyed by Cavil because Ellen favored him .

For some reason the ORIGIN stories don't STICK or stay with one after one hears them.

yeah going through Caprica is a bit of a task I only have done a couple of binges where I watched the entire Caprica/ reboot BSG series in chronological order it'took me about two weeks and it is quite a task but when one watches Caprica the ending of Daybreak makes a little more sense.

Do you mean the CHARACTER in CAPRICA??? Since that show got cancelled it's also difficult to recall what happens in it now.

Yes ,well basically in Caprica we see Adama's father the advocate his uncle and a very young Adama in the series.It is about how these families become connected to each other by dramatic circumstances.I only remember this vaguely in the opening we are introduced to this thing called VR(virtual reality)world where the youth entertain themselves in all kinds of ways not possible in the real world like killing people and stuff like that.It is very addictive.The daughter of Daniel Graystone (a CEO of a company that is big in AI and robotics) is one of these youth but because of the whole shallowness of this all she is subverted by this religious cult believing that a life in service of the Gods wil give life more meaning.She and a boyfriend blow or are blown up by this small extremist group while traveling on a monorail which I believe also kills Adama Sr. wife and (I also believe another child but not sure of this).the Graystone family comes into contact with Adama family.After being grief stricken Adama Sr. goes out on an investigation of his own which ultimately leads him to VR world where all memory engrams of it's users are stored Adam Sr. becomes addicted because it gives him the opportunity the have contact with his dead relatives he also find the virtual copy of Graystone's daughter who has been wandering there since the attack.Upon hearing this Daniel Graystone decides to make a robotic copy of his daughter and have her memory engrams downloaded into the daughter robot ,after al kinds of shenanigans which include the religious cult,the Adama family,a competitor of Graystone and underworld figures the memory engrams of Daystone's daughter in the end wound up as the core program of the Cylon toaster models the series ends with the Cylon after first being seen as a benefit uprising against their human creators.

STARBUCK painting a LIGHT SHIP on the wall of the SHIP after her RESURRECTION is something from the ORIGINAL series.

Again see the ILLUSTRATION in the LINK where you see STARBUCK PAINTING a LIGHT BEING SHIP on the WALL of the SHIP and another photo of a LIGHT SHIP sitting beside of that illustration.

Fair points I 'll have to check that out more thoroughly next time I am on my BSG binge

Maybe so, but GOD also didn't GRANT them the RIGHT to RESURRECT themselves again after they died. And since they also mention the BE FRUITFUL and MULTIPLY commandment, that also sounds like the OLD TESTY GOD who would FROWN upon such a thing (due to the way ADAM and EVE were given LIMITED LIFE SPANS as a way to PUNISH them for eating from the TREE of KNOWLEGE which also ENABLES EVE to CREATE other beings in HER OWN IMAGE)..

that God thing was mainly in the heads of the Cylons because of the core program i just told you about.The fact that the Cylons could not reproduce (like humans) mainly has to do with the fact that the Cylons were created by the humans of Colonies so their version of Gods would be Daniel Graystone and his daughter.But it is an interesting point one has to look at more closely next time one is on a binge.

The PHOTO might have been FABRICATED but the FACTS were NOT (because he did let SIX into the MAINFRAME).

I know but the real life Caprica six was a sleeper agent sent to make him repent for his blasphemous remarks after he shows remorse she disappears and it turns out the photo was a fabrication although he actually was guilty of the crime.

Wasn't the NUKE VOLUNTARILY given to a different VERSION of SIX?? The one who was CHAINED to the FLOOR and REPEATEDLY RAPED by the CREW of the PEGASUS???

The nuke was given to Baltar so he could the radioactive isotopes for his Cylon scanner.Whether that was the Caprica six from the Pegasus or the sleeper agent that came out to accuse him I don't know.

You've lost me here ...

Could you blame Baltar for not knowing where everybody in the fleet is ,I mean it is hard to keep track of all 35,000 souls on board the fleet so it was easy for Caprica six to escape back into the anonymity of the fleet.

Not sure what you're saying here ...

That Caprica six in Balter's head was probably there to distract him.Plus that in The Plan we see that various sleeper agents were on board of the fleet that the Caprica six that vanished probably had aid.

No but LOTS of people saw him behaving STRANGELY and talking TO HER. At one point STARBUCK also caught him with his pants down screwing her.

Which always made me wonder why everybody thought it was a good idea to give a guy who clearly has mental issues head of the science program(sure he's a briljant scientist but even the most briljant and awkward scientists do not act in that way..)?

My friend who has his PHD in PARTICLE PHYSICS and I argued over WHAT he was, with him saying he could survive the NUKE BLAST where we see SIX standing in front of him (because he also says they're are NUKES that explode ABOVE cities and DON'T DESTROY them). But with that GLASS WINDOW BLOWING in like that one can't see BALTAR being able to SURVIVE that BLAST even with SIX PROTECTING him from it.

I remember a similar discussion on the old IMDB boards where that exact point was raised in a discussion whether Baltar was human or something else or it was a discussion about who the posters thought would be far more logical candidates for the final rather than the characters we were given

And he also had some VERY STRANGE VISIONS while he was there on KOBOL too.

Which together with the previous point you raised still makes me wonder what Baltar is?

Maybe passing a TEST of MORALITY is also necessary before one can EVOLVE???

But what morality test did Kara Thrace past prior to her death?,which at the time felt rather pointless.

Wasn't one of them an ATHEIST?? Was it LEOBEN??

Loeben on the contrary I think the Leoben was probably the most religious of all the models.

Which is CURIOUS because of the way she's been through just as much if not MORE HELL than TYROL went through.

Well maybe because Tyrol is generally portayed as being a more likeable character ,where fate dealt him a giant shit sandwich.

@Nexus71 said:

Fair point but one can't expect that something that was in the original to apply for the reboot especially since Ron D Moore tried so hard to make his version so much different from the original apart from the original premise.But I have to try and watch the show in a next binge with a keen eye for looking for hints of the beings of light.

Aside from everything else, I don't think it's possible to make a valid argument for that claim. The original premise was that the Cylons were created by a (mostly) extinct race of aliens, not by humans of the past.

Off and on topic: reading these discussions comparing Starbuck (BSG1978) and Starbuck (BSG2004), is something one can also expect and that is happening, when characters from "ST: Original Series" are compared with their rebooted (more detailed/extended and revised background-history) version in "ST: Discovery".

Already the two versions of Captain Pike are being compared (who do you prefer?), and NuSpock seems to have more dark secrets and issues than we - with the exception of the present writers - can ever imagine.

Rewatching the original series, makes you wonder if Spock's behaviour there has anything to do with what we know from him now as NuSpock. Every word and action is scrutinized and seen in a different light.

Is he really being logical or just an emotionally disturbed, traumatized and sexually frustrated character who conceals everything behind the facade of this so-called 'Vulcan teachings of Surak'.

Did Michael teach him the nerve pinch and did he use it for dishonourable reasons?

Just one of the many (crazy) thoughts that start popping up.


Let's hope that they don't drastically change (give more detail of) Pike's history.
As we know so little of him, anything can be added and changed.

Examples:

Was the cause of his accident really what was mentioned in "The Cage" and "Menagerie" or was it all a lie (cover-up)?

Is section 31 in any way involved or even NuSpock?

Will time travel be included in the explanation?

In fact, was that the real Pike in a wheelchair? Or is the NuPike the real one?

Is NuPike going to start a relationship with Michael Burnham?
How is "Tyler" (section 31 agent) going to react (jealous)?
What will NuSpock think about NuPike dating his sister (jealous)?


Season 2 and 3 might be fun (or not) to watch with all this and more happening.

@Knixon,

You clearly weren't paying attention to what I wrote. Commercial success, ticket sales, web popularity etc have nothing to do with 'intrinsic quality, good judgement or morality" This 'tyranny of the majority' was explored in a recent episode of the Orville, quite successfully I believe. The error, injustice and moral decadence of making decisions based on " how many people buy tickets or feel or think a certain way" was made painfully clear.

Most reasonable people know this instinctively. Most organizations, societies don't allow decisions to be made based on the wishes of the majority, only. Yes, today a certain demographic is the ticket buying majority but that will not always be so.

Back to the ST series. I am simply positing the view that the big outcry against and continued negative criticism that follows the DSC series is NOT based on any careful analysis of the acting; plot development; thoughtless writing and not even the perceived departure from canon. I suggest it was largely based on a guttural reaction to the inclusion in the main cast of those who had previously been excluded. Those who bend over backwards to pretend that this is not the case are being willfully blind. imho.

How many people were only saying they didn't like the show, before they ever saw it; versus those who say they don't like it, AFTER they saw it, based on writing etc? If you somehow divine that those people are only - CAN only - be basing their opinion on sexist or homophobic or whatever, bias, might say more about you than it does about them.

For my money, such as it is, anyone who argues that a sci-fi show that has any of its premises based on the byperspace-travel ability of furry bears who somehow exist in a vacuum and just think about where they want to go - for example - apparently including magically leaving and re-entering atmospheres, is beyond ridiculous. If the bears happen to be gay, that doesn't then mean that I'm really just being homophobic. If anything, it may suggest that the person/people who came up with the stupid idea, were just looking for a way to deflect their justly-deserved ridicule.

Did you put the "spore drive" down the memory hole already, or were you just not paying attention?

You clearly weren't paying attention to what I wrote. Commercial success, ticket sales, web popularity etc have nothing to do with 'intrinsic quality, good judgement or morality" This 'tyranny of the majority' was explored in a recent episode of the Orville, quite successfully I believe. The error, injustice and moral decadence of making decisions based on " how many people buy tickets or feel or think a certain way" was made painfully clear.

Sorry but you still don't get it do you? TLJ was not a bomb but a commercial succes so with that previous post you are saying exactly the same thing as those who have genuine criticism of TLJ (not related to female or gender related issues) supported by relevant examples.But because of the criticism those that loved the movie and are not listening to the genuine and relevant problems with the movie than claim they didn't like the movie because they are old farts stuck in the past? You applaud Disney for not doing what people who have spend vast amount of time (and money) into a franchise wanted/expected even though it makes no sense from a perspective of good ,engaging story telling,tone ,pacing,character arc or established background history. Because then I got a message for you these things still matter even in a relative simple movie as a Star Wars movie, and these things matter even more when a movie is part of a franchise.A franchise film means making a film according some basic guidelines,story arc,character development,tone and pacing also this cannon provides directors and writers some basic footholds to build a story and characters around.You can't change the recipe of a franchise product too radically otherwise it seizes to be franchise related even while being promoted as part of the franchise.

Let me give you a simple analogy if Coca Cola decides to radically change the flavor of Coke by changing it in a lemon flavored softdrink and then sell it to costumers as "New Coca Cola" what do you think the customers would say to the Coca Cola company? Do you think they will buy the advertisement of the Coca Cola company that it tastes just like Coke or do you think they would call out the company for their BS and boycot Coca Cola and run to Pepsi which still makes their Cola as they used to do? I think the latter because we have the example of back in the '80's when Coke did slightly changed the formula which resulted in an outcry of Coke drinkers and boycots that the Coke company didn't now how fast to re-introduce the old Coke flavor.The same thing applies to the Star Wars,Gostbusters and Star trek franchises when a product looses all or too much of the the things that make inherently part of a franchise it seizes to be part of that franchise .I and various others have posted in this thread exactly what they thought what was wrong by giving various examples to explain why it fails as a Star Trek series and why it fails at being so.So why do you keep on throwing up this race /gender/nostalgia card when that isn't the main issue.

By your own definition it means all blockbusters are rubbish and most box office bombs are masterpieces?This might be true for some examples but for every Blade Runner there are twenty Plan 9's From Outer Space.Just because YOU like the series doesn't mean that all those that don't like it are wrong .It's just an opinion and if you can think by blackmailing those that don't like it,by playing on sentiments like racisme gender oppression or nostalgia, into liking it or revise our views just because YOU think that ,is not going to work my friend.And it is especially obtuse if you make these accusations about fans of a franchise like Star Trek that has always promoted liberal views ,all inclusiveness and gender equality and throughout it's 50 years has changed on various occasions(sometimes quite drastically) because it shows that you obviously have very little knowledge of the franchise or haven't payed attention while watching the show.

Most reasonable people know this instinctively. Most organizations, societies don't allow decisions to be made based on the wishes of the majority, only. Yes, today a certain demographic is the ticket buying majority but that will not always be so.

REALLY?? I don't know which country you are from but in most modern western countries where there is a democracy THE MAJORITY RULES. And what you are saying is that the rule of the minority or the one is better because we have another name for that called dictatorship and we have ample examples in history that contradict the whole reasonability of such regimes.So I doubt whether reasonable people will subscribe to your point of view,and I think they would rather have democracy over dictatorship even though one could argue onto which degree the majority has influence in a democracy.

Back to the ST series. I am simply positing the view that the big outcry against and continued negative criticism that follows the DSC series is NOT based on any careful analysis of the acting; plot development; thoughtless writing and not even the perceived departure from canon. I suggest it was largely based on a guttural reaction to the inclusion in the main cast of those who had previously been excluded. Those who bend over backwards to pretend that this is not the case are being willfully blind. imho.

In stead of accusing us of not carefully analyzing the series WHY DON'T YOU PROVIDE US WITH REASONS AND EXAMPLES WHY YOU THINK THIS SERIES IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN OTHER TREK SERIES AND MORE IMPORTANTLY WHY YOU THINK IT IS PART OF ESTABLISHED TREK CANNON? Because most of us that don't agree with you have given you ample.And please stop blaming it on racisme/gender inequality or nostalgia because such accusations with a franchise as Star Trek(which is one of the longest running SF franchises) makes you look so incredibly ridiculous. And the producers kind of knew what they were getting into and deliberately tried to seek the confrontation partly to promote the series and also by morally blackmailing fans into liking it or to divert valid criticism.Fandom because of these shady tactics have become a bad word ,even though most franchises thank their existence to these fans who have been buying their products and related products(toys,books,games) over the years and kept the anticipation for these franchises alive even in the years when there was no product to promote So what the studios are doing now by attacking the fans is basically biting the hands that feeds .If Discovery had just been called Discovery all these issues wouldn't matter or matter less and it would have been a decent stand alone SF series but by putting Star Trek in front of it alone won't make it part of the franchise when it according to the rules and established cannon of the franchise(unless your series is comprised of series or movies that stand alone ,which Star Trek isn't)makes no sense or contradicts this.

I suggest it was largely based on a guttural reaction to the inclusion in the main cast of those who had previously been excluded. Those who bend over backwards to pretend that this is not the case are being willfully blind. imho._

You suggest wrongly since most decent Star Trek fans now that last line is a LIE and can contradict this false assumption with various Trek episodes to prove the opposite.That you like it is your right and good for you but it is just an opinion just like mine having certain issues with it,Just because it is your opinion and it is favorable means that it should be regarded as the gold standard on which things . And stop accusing those that don't like it with the same vile imbecile accusations the producers ,writers and studios are using because that won't work most certainly not for a crowd that obviously knows far better about things like cannon and franchise criteria and have been fan of the franchise for far longer than these guys who are only in it for the money and not because they truly love the franchise.Also I would suggest you not making that last remark on the DS9 or VOY boards because with what you wrote in your last sentence you are basically shitting upon the legacy of Benjamin Sisko and Katherine Janeway

And when fans comment on how bad characters are written or are portrayed they are not automatically critical about this character's race or gender .So when they feel a character is bland or they think a character feels forced into a story line it is because of bad acting or bad uninspired writing NOT because that character is black ,bisexual ,gay or transgender.

There are exceptions to the rules but even though radically altered at it's core is the same story as the original and even the characters while being different makes sense.But it is a reboot of an old series it still is a stand alone series it was never suggested apart from some fans service Easter eggs that the series are linked with each other THAT is the difference between the Re BSG and DISC since the writers and producers of that show claim that it is part of the established Trek cannon,they never sold it as a REBOOT but as a sequel to ENT and a prequel to TOS,TAS,TNG,DS9,VOY.

Sorry Invidia I thoroughly explained why I prefer one and you have explained why you prefer the other,So I am not going back into the whole Starbuck discussion again.. And most of what was written in the previous summaries you found sounds like accurate to me since it has been less than 2 months since I had my last BSG binge so it is still fresh for me and so far I read very little that contradicts from what I remember seeing,You may not like it because it puts your favorite character in an unflattering light but when it is accurate there is no need in denying it,. And why would the opinions of a B-actor mean so much to you it's just an opinion nothing more you must separate the actor from the part.

But since the DIS version of it is also suppose to take place BEFORE the FEDERATION is FORMED (or is still in it's INFANT stages of development), one also understands the reasons why the characters would also tend to be MUCH MORE FLAWED than the other one's that we meet much later on.

Disc takes place some 80-90 years after ENT so the UFP has already existed for almost a century around the time of ENT since we see the formation and signing of the UFP charter in the final episode of ENT. This show also takes place 10-15 years prior to TOS.And we already had flawed characters in ENT so why should the characters be even more flawed(taking it to level 11 those who have seen Spinal Tap will understands what that means)than the ones of ENT. And you know what? people hated that of ENT. But in reality the characters of DISC should be an amalgamate of ENT and TOS.The captain Pike character of Season 2 is that most of the characters of season 1 aren't.

The POINT here (which someone else also previously mentioned HERE on this topic) is the DIS story TAKES PLACE BEFORE most of the rest of the ST stories do that we've already seen..

It takes place between ENT and TOS so what.It doesn't explain why the show utilizes technology that was even unheard of during the time of TNG(example the spore drive)?

Therefore, your complaint that the behavior of the FEMALE CAPTAIN of the ship is so IRRATIC also MAKES SENSE whenever one takes into consideration that the show one is watching is the FEDERATION still in it's INFANCY STAGE.

No no the female captains behavior (Michelle Yeoh) is the show's least problem,the problem is when the show focussen not on the captain but her second in command who acts against her Vulcan upbringing or is suffering from a bi-polar disorder .Who in the first minutes of the show mutinies against her female captain starting a war with the Klingons against specific orders ,because some previous never revealed intergalactic Vulcan mind communication with het stepfather (who turns out to be Spock's father Sarek,which makes her an adopted sister that was never talked about by Spock)who advises that the Vulcan policy towards Klingons is shoot first ask questions later (I wonder who the in hell they picked as advisor on Vulcan philosophy,history and politics on the show? Otto from A Fish Called Wanda????) .

Therefore, your complaint that the behavior of the FEMALE CAPTAIN of the ship is so IRRATIC also MAKES SENSE whenever one takes into consideration that the show one is watching is the FEDERATION still in it's INFANCY STAGE.

No the complaint is about the CO and main character Michael Burnham who in light of what I previously wrote is acting irratic despite her Vulcan upbringing.The Federation by that time already existed for almost a century so it is not in it's infancy.

In other words, you also seem to be saying you want the story to RUN before the characters in it have learned to CRAWL or WALK.

No that is not what I said read comments here above.What DISC does is like if they would make prequel of Gandhi where we have Gandhi 's declare his life motto would be "Kill 'em all before they kill you" and claim it is according established cannon.

But one also has to first take those BABY STEPS before one can learn how to RUN

But mankind and the UFP at this point in history are already beyond baby steps.