Discuss Star Trek: Discovery
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7 Year Mission
posted by Philippe LeMarchandSTAFFMOD on October 14, 2020 at 3:14 AM
Despite the Angry Young Men of YouTube having had "proof" for years that Kurtzman/Bad Robot are out and modern Trek will be swiftly ended, it looks as if a loose seven year plan for Trek on TV has been formulated.
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/star-trek-shows-planned-through-2027
Reply by Midi-chlorian_Count
on October 14, 2020 at 6:07 AM
Angry old men, shurely.
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on October 14, 2020 at 8:03 AM
I assumed that they were just young lads who hadn't yet grown up. Having searched this forum section for a links/names so I could see what they looked like you're right; they are old enough to know better.
Reply by manfromatlantis
on October 16, 2020 at 11:16 PM
A wild plan to take this all the way tot he Bank!
Reply by Nexus71
on October 20, 2020 at 4:40 PM
What bank? this and the other series are costing them money.When Discovery first aired 3 years ago as a teaser on national TV it had about 10 million viewers since a couple of weeks the entire season 1 can be viewed on CBS 's regular TV channel were it barely gets 1.7-1.8 million viewers so that's 82-83% who have checked out on watching Star Trek .Same thing for Picard on Canadian TV it went from more than 2 million viewers at the begin of the season to barely 1.2-1.3 million viewers for the season finale with a drop off of 45-50% so that isn't doing to well either.And when Lower Decks was released on YouTube for free it barely made 45,000-50,000 views in a week when certain Youtubers easily get that number of views in a single day regularly same thing for the Star Trek Convention Podcasts last month some panels barely got a 1,000 views and best viewed panels barely got 50,000 views .Add to that the fact that Star Trek merchandise isn't selling and is hardly available which use to be good for a 1-2 billion revenue annually .Finally CBS All Access isn't drawing in the numbers either in Feb 2019 it had 4 million subscribers(see link) but after the merger with Viacom their streaming services were bundled together so CBS All Access got the 7.2 million subscribers from Viacom added to their subscriber numbers as well .But as of the beginning of this year CBS All Access (even with all the added streaming services of Showtime and others) had barely 12 million subscribers in the three years that it started compare that to Disney+ who went in 6 months to a US number of subscribers of 33.5 million and 54.5 million Worldwide by the end of March this year to a rumored nearly 80-100 million Worldwide subscribers now. And considering that new Star Trek was going to be the biggest selling point for CBS All Access which is currently being assimilated in the the new Paramount+ streaming service concludes that Star Trek from a business and financial perspective is as good as dead and for a series that costs between 8-10 million per episode that is a disaster.That they keep announcing (and sometimes producing)new shows and seasons is merely because of contract obligations rather than because of the financial success o the shows and we haven't even began to discuss the lasting damage to the legacy and bankability of the Trek franchise in the long term.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1047393/cbs-all-access-subscribers-us/#:~:text=ViacomCBS%3A%20number%20of%20subscribers%20in%20the%20U.S.%202015%2D2020&text=As%20of%20February%202019%2C%20estimates,million%20reported%20in%20August%202018.
Reply by Nexus71
on October 25, 2020 at 9:08 PM
The rating did drop 82-83 % even in reruns older Trek series would draw more viewers in contrast more people watched reruns of game shows and The Masked Singer in the same week Discovery aired on CBS so 1,7-1,8 million viewers is still a bad number even if the show is three years old certainly taking into account that some viewers had not subscribed to CBS All Access.FACT!
The Picard show lost 45-50% of it viewers during the first time it aired in Canada these figures can be found on line FACT!
The Picard show wasn't in the top 50 of most watched shows on Amazon (can be checked on-line at Amazon Prime.com) FACT!
The Picard show apart from the first epsiode was never trending on social media (and considering this is New Trek's target audience) FACT!
Netflix wasn't bothered to promote season 3 of STD until a week before it aired (I have Netflix and I checked ) FACT!
Even when STD aired it never was in the 50 of most watched shows on Netflix while the 30+ year old TNG was in the top 50 (I have checked at Netflix.com) FACT!
STD season 3 isn't trending on Netflix currently here in Holland FACT!
The podcasts of the Star Trek Convention last month never got above 50,000 views on Youtube the Podcast with Stewart and the STP crew barely got 1,200 views even the ENT Podcast got more with 4,000+ views (I watched some podcasts so I've checked on Youtube ) FACT!
Disney + managed to get 33.5 million US and 54.5 million Worldwide subscribers in less than six months ,while CBS All Access on it's own never got more than 4 million subscribers in 4 years (see previous link) and even merged with the streaming services of Viacom never got more than 12 million subscribers,and considering the Covid and the fact that Disney+ is a Worldwide service it would be safe to assume that the 80-100 million Worldwide subscribers isn't that far fetched almost 12 months after the service started. FACT!
CBS All Access is a failure the fact that it is going to be incorporated into the new Paramount+ streaming service speaks volumes FACT!
When they tried to create buzz for Lower Decks they put the first episode on Youtube for a limited time for free the number of views was abysmal and it got more thumbs down than thumbs up (even though CBS manipulated the numbers behind the scenes and there is proof of CBS manipulating the numbers and deleting negative comments)FACT!
There is hardly any new Star Trek merchandise and the merchandise being sold aren't selling either they even had to cancels deals with the companies that made the merchandise (this can be found in the industries trade papers)FACT!
Since all of the above can be checked and verified on line and in the trade papers I would call these hardly false or without merit since most of these can be verified independently so no false presentation or incorrectness from my part. And you have to ask yourself objectively that if new Trek is really so successful as they claim then why won't CBS All Access release the number of viewers and ratings for these shows it would be the quickest and easiest way to silence all criticism and claims of Trek not being successful???????
Star Trek is a good as dead it doesn't create a buzz on social media even on the streaming services where it is available it is not drawing in the numbers for the amount of money these shows costs for these streaming services .The fact that both Netflix and Amazon rejected to take up the budget for Strange New Worlds is a sign on the wall that they aren't satisfied with what they got from Secret Hideout and Kurtzman and isn't drawing in the numbers otherwise they would have signed a deal for Strange New Worlds and other services weren't exactly lining up to sign a deal as well is telling as well.
Reply by Nexus71
on October 26, 2020 at 10:11 AM
If a showed aired 3 years ago on cable and got 10 million viewers and when the same show airs again and only gets between 1.7-1.8 millions of viewers we can conclude that there is a 82 % drop off and if it was just the case that it only was for the episode that aired one would at least expect an increase in viewers for the episodes that didn't air on cable and the ratings aren't showing that.And by your own logic let's assume that of the 10 million original viewers 2-3 million signed on for CBS All Access that still leaves 7-8 million potential viewers to watch the show now it is on cable so why aren't they watching?
Another thing is why do the producers and those involved with the show constantly feel the need to attack those that criticize the show in various articles and interviews trying to play some moral extortion game that if you don't like the show you're a toxic fan or an -ist or a -phobe(and every other insult known to man) clearly they aren't bringing in the number of viewers because if the show did really well (as they keep claiming) why would they even bother about the opinions of a small minority?
The Canadian ratings for Picard are from cable TV not a streaming service so the argument there doesn't apply and Star Trek has been airing there since 1966 (in fact the very first Star Trek episode aired there a couple of days before Star Trek premiered in the US) .
For streaming platforms it has to be economically viable to produce a show if it doesn't manage to get into the top 50 of most watched shows especially if the show costs around 100-150 million per season (and Star Trek Discovery before Amazon's LOTR series and Apple's Foundation series was the most expensive TV show ever made) and from what I get from information within Netflix Kurtzman spend far more than 150 million during the first season of Discovery and Netflix was fuming about that because they were to put for 100% of the costs for the first season. The only reasons for Netflix to keep Discovery is a) because they signed a deal for x amount of seasons of Discovery b) part of the reason they signed the deal was so they could have the rights to stream all the previous Star Trek shows for at least 10 years outside the US.
Well it sure would be easiest and quickest way to silence those who say Discovery or Trek in general is dying by releasing the viewer and rating numbers on CBS All Access if their claims are true than it would show in the numbers and apart from that then why are they constantly attacking those who criticize the show like I said if the show does well why would you even address or attack the minority that has issues with your show unless they are not a minority?? And why is Youtube under guidance from CBS deleting negative comments and manipulates the like/dislike ratio and number of views when trailers of Trek shows and short treks are streamed on Youtube?Seems an awful lot like damage control to me.(this is not from hearsay but I actually witnessed this live when it happened)
Well for most people social media is BS Invidia unless your target audience for your show is those on social media (according to the producers of Discovery the show was aimed at a younger audience)So for them to know your show exists and airs it has to be picked up bY these social media and be trending at some point and maintain a certain amount of buzz on these social media.Ergo the target audience isn't watching the show either.
The point of both Netflix and Amazon rejecting Strange New World is to illustrate that new Trek isn't a success on their streaming services otherwise if new Star Trek is so successful they would be eager to ask for more shows like Discovery and Picard and the fact that previously Netflix rejected the Picard series was already a sign that they weren't exactly satisfied with Discovery (to put it mildly).
I think the number of viewers and ratings are highly relevant no studio makes a TV show when nobody is watching it seems like a waste of an awful lot of money for no or a limited audience. And it was the viewer numbers in 2004/5 that spelled the end for ENT so why won't these rules apply to Discovery or Picard ? Seems like you are ignoring the reality of commercial television. And the whole point of Discovery and Picard was to serve as flagships for a streaming service(CBS All Access) so the number of viewers ergo the number of subscribers is very important. Another interesting number is that since the number of subscribers on CBS All Access alone never got above 4 million subscribers and that not all of these subscribers subscribed because of Star Trek we can deduce that Discovery had less viewers than ENT had at it's low point .
Sure there is lot more competition than back in the days of old Trek although we can exclude ENT from that because it had to compete with shows like Firefly,Stargate SG 1 ,Stargate Atlantis,Dr. Who and it's spin offs and the early seasons of the reboot BSG. So that should not have been a thing they had not counted on or at least took into into account when making new Trek (which is why we got all the changes a lot ofTrekkies have issues with) .
Yeah Kurtzman keeps talking about his great 7 year masterplan but the point is before he can make anything he has to have the green light from the head office of Viacom/CBS before anything gets produced and from the news in the media I get the impression Miss Redstone and her board aren't fans of Kurtzman and Co in fact they have actually hired Emma Watts to investigate a "Reboot of Star Trek "(actual headline of the article).So why would you hire Emma Watts if you are satisfied with the current state of Star Trek and why would you even reboot a successful show ? The only reason Kurtzman keeps announcing things is to give the illusion he is still in control and to create the illusion everything is hunky dory. And considering Kurtzman's track record on telling the truth I take every thing HE says with a proverbial grain of salt.
The things I mentioned here and previously ARE VERIFIABLE FACTS INVIDIA THEY ARE NOT RUMORS THEY CAN ACTUALLY BE CHECKED in the established media BY DOING SOME INVESTIGATION FOR YOURSELF IN STEAD OF PARROTING EVERYTHING KURTZMAN AND HIS MINIONS CLAIM.So in stead of you accusing me of parroting maybe you yourself should actually do some research like I did.
Reply by Nexus71
on October 26, 2020 at 11:43 AM
The first episode of Discovery was available for free as a teaser for CBS All Access three years ago and it got 10 million viewers.
What you are discussing is the content I am discussing economics. And considering what you wrote about youngsters not liking the show illustrates why the producers failed since they specifically mentioned (prior to the release of Discovery) that their target was to reach a new young audience. (like they tried to do to a certain extend with ENT)
Yes I read the article with Frakes mentioning the first two seasons of TNG and the audience backlash then but even then the backlash wasn't that bad as currently . And even though some had criticism they at least gave the show a chance because it at least respected established canon/continuity without constantly making references to previous series randomly unlike current Trek.And by mentioning this Frakes implied that those who were criticizing current Trek are wrong and that they somehow expect that people will embrace it after season 2 which is not the case (and after watching 2 episodes of season 3 I see why).And despite the rather mixed bag that is season 1&2 they still managed to come up with early season classics like The Measure Of A Man ,Q Who? & Conspiracy(which showed that the producers of TNG actually were listening to fans).
But there have been more articles and interviews before and after that article (Recently we had Marina Sirtis in an article attacking Kirsty Alley for her views and political persuasions)or Jason Isaac attacking fans personally on social media calling them racists ,misogynists etc.Or Chabon confessing that they deliberately put in stuff into Picard specifically aimed to piss off fans etc ,So the Frakes article is not by itself.
And the disadvantages of streaming is something I already pointed out when they announced that Discovery was only going to be available on CBS All Access in the US and Netflix for the rest of the World.I already predicted that streaming in the end would not get them the amount of viewers/subscribers to make the show economically viable because of various reasons which as it now turns out are the exact reasons why current Trek is in trouble. and that in the end by trying to appeal to the masses and the fans would eventually lead to a product that neither would like.
Look Invidia that you like the show is all fine be me and most of the people who don't like new Trek but we are not the ones who constantly attack others for not sharing our views.Most of the times it's the other way round be it in the form of an article or interview Youtube video or a twitter ban ,or taking down of videos where people give their personal (often negative) view on new Trek or get bullied by (probably CBS backed) shills on social media (and even threats of violence) for making a video/writing an article pointing out their criticism of /or what is wrong with new Trek and the criticism is not only from white males (as the PR department of new Trek likes to suggest)The criticism comes from females,males,blacks,whites,Hispanics,Asians,from people of the LBGTQ+ community,people from the left ,center and right ,people who like Trump and those that hate Trump and those in the middle, People of various religions and atheists people from the US,Canada,Europe,Asia Australia and Latin America.Most of us don't like new Trek not because of who is the main character or what the color of his/her skin is or what gender or sex they identify as .But it is because basic story telling and .lack of scientific accuracy (yes even in a science fiction show) ,disregarding of canon/continuity,the dark and depressing tone(and considering the depressing daily news people are desperate for some bright optimistic distraction)The overt political pandering to one side of the spectrum(It doesn't quite help to get as many viewers/subscribers that you dismiss already half of your fan base when you say a show is anti-Trump or anti Brexit) and force feeding of current day politics into the show and lecturing the viewer on certain (political ) topics when most of us just want to be entertained and probably have a show that has a more Humanist way of dealing with things (like old Trek)and let the viewer judge for himself by showing both sides of the medal. And for all it's political and social posturing new Trek does very little with this so called "new inclusiveness" and in many respects The Orville does a far better, far more convincing and engaging job with that material without making a fuss about it in the media.
Reply by wonder2wonder
on October 26, 2020 at 12:20 PM
There are 'old' and 'young' people - men and women - some who will agree and others who will disagree with the new direction of this franchise.
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on October 27, 2020 at 7:33 AM
Feeling a bit rough today (hopefully not C19!) so cba to quote people, but a couple of thoughts.
The one thing that motivates the people with the money in virtually anything is the possibility to make more of it. If DIS and PIC were doing that badly, they would be long gone - yet they're not. Members here keep posting "proof" that the production team are being sacked, but they're announcing multi-year plans; they're not even doing a "Star Wars" and "rethinking their strategy". BTW, this article says that towards the end of DIS Season 2 the show was the most popular streaming show in the world: https://screenrant.com/star-trek-discovery-ratings-most-popular-streaming-show/
Also it seems that many members here would rather be negative about shows/movies they have decided they don't like rather than celebrate those they claim to. For instance, when they are accused of misogyny they claim they appreciated Wonder Woman and Alita, but don't seem to post there. The Orville is allegedly much better than DIS, but they seem to get more fun whingeing about DIS than discussing that show. I seem to recall spotting a thread somewhere listing the times one of (?) the new Trek shows had "ripped off" other SF, but even though Seth MacFarlane couldn't get the rights to remake TNG apparently The Orville is still incredibly original.
Reply by Nexus71
on October 27, 2020 at 2:08 PM
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/08/17/new-rumor-claims-more-star-trek-shows-cancelled-including-picard-as-internal-struggle-mounts-between-emma-watts-and-alex-kurtzman/
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/03/05/star-trek-picard-viewership-plummets-over-half-a-million-in-canada/
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/10/05/star-trek-discovery-sees-ratings-boost-in-18-49-demographic-with-debut-of-second-episode/#:~:text=According%20to%20Canadian%20tracking%20website,to%20only%201.444%20million%20viewers.
https://www.vox.com/2018/12/21/18139817/netflix-most-popular-shows-friends-office-greys-anatomy-parks-recreation-streaming-tv
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/609628/netflix-most-watched-shows-2019
https://www.whats-on-netflix.com/what-to-watch/top-50-best-tv-series-on-netflix-in-october-2020/
https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/star-trek-discovery-season-one-ratings/
https://uproxx.com/tv/best-tv-shows-on-amazon-prime-video-now/
https://www.digitaltrends.com/movies/best-shows-on-amazon-prime/
https://ew.com/tv/2017/09/25/star-trek-discovery-ratings/
(the numbers don't lie)
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on October 27, 2020 at 2:54 PM
1) "Not only does this new rumor from 4Chan" that well known source of accurate reporting.
2) The Orville lost 5 million: https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/the-orville-season-one-ratings/ Plus "Related: Red Letter Media Explains Why Star Trek: Picard Is A Dumpster Fire" so, unbiased reporting fail.
3) Same biased source, plus the story seems to be saying that ratings are holding steady though it compares it to a show I had to Google. (It has a huge SEVEN discussions on this site).
4) 5) 6) Erm... DIS isn't on Netflix US AFAIK.
7) The ratings stayed in the same area on this channel.
8) 9) Similar to 4, 5 & 6, AFAICT you need a CBS sub to watch PIC via Amazon US, so probably not included as an "Amazon" show.
10) Surely some mistake? You've posted a positive story?
Not many numbers or facts.
Reply by Nexus71
on October 27, 2020 at 3:13 PM
1)Well 4 Chan was right about Star Wars TROS and Picard so what's your problem
2)Discovery costs between 8-10 million per episode figure out how much they must have lost and some even claim it costs even more per episode but i stuck with what was reported.
3)The source for the article is the Canadian ratings for TV not some streaming services so these can be verified
4-6)but it is outside the US and there is were the most money should come from 4 million subscribers for CBS All Access is not going to be enough for the entire season to rank in much profits so the money has to come else where .Also since Netflix paid for 100% of the costs for the first season and to a lesser degree for the continuing seasons for Netflix to keep it economic for them to keep ordering more new Trek
7) I find it noteworthy that a show that is almost 55 years old gets preference over a newer Star Trek show made this year
8/9) same reply as for 4-6 only replace Netflix with Amazon
10) no it was to indicate what the number of viewers were for STD when it premiered three years ago and compare them to the number of viewers on CBS TV this September/October
https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/star-trek-discovery-season-one-ratings/
Reply by Nexus71
on October 27, 2020 at 5:14 PM
No Discovery is horribly written by people who don't know Star Trek who don't know how to write a Star Trek script or a science fiction script for that matter and are so dumb they think they can fool fans.Or The writers really hate Star Trek and want to destroy everything it stands for .These writers were not chosen for their skills but so the studio can tick off diversity boxes. The sheer stupidity in all the shows so far doesn't give me any faith that they ever gonna produce anything worthy of the Star Trek name.And sure let Kurtzman have another 7 years by that time Star Trek wil be a long lostr memory because nobody gives a shit anymore.
Just because a lit degree doesn't mean you understand all that is going on Invidia I have been on long research on both sides of the claim to find out a lot of shit .And if you don't see what is happening to the entertainment industry as a whole . You fail to see the finer details of the agenda's these studios have .And No I am not some Tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nut but I can tell you this I am looking forward to the entertainment industry going in a temper tantrum again for four more years when Trump wins in November.😁😁😁😁😁😁
ps ; CBS must really be giving you good money for this otherwise I can't imagine why you keep reacting to the things I write
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on October 27, 2020 at 5:19 PM
1) 4Chan is also the birthplace of QAnon. Take a look here to see how accurate they are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon
2) I meant (as you can see from the link) that TO lost 5 million viewers compared to the 0.5 million that PIC lost in an equivalent period. Can't imagine DIS is losing money, or they wouldn't have already greenlit season 4.
3) The source is https://boundingintocomics.com who quoted RedLetterMedia in (1) which makes them about as believable as Donald Trump.
4) 5) 6) 8) 9) But the links were all to the "top shows" on channels that don't show DIS or PIC. It's like saying "Everyone must hate Grey's Anatomy - it's not on this list of top CBS shows or this one of top NBC shows". (According to my check Grey's is the top rated scripted network show in the US).
7) Don't see that in the article:
10) You're comparing an FTA broadcast to a paywalled one. Of course the free one will have more viewers.
Reply by Nexus71
on October 27, 2020 at 5:55 PM
Well I know the difference between bad writing and good writing and after three years and four seasons of new Trek these writers still don't know how to write a cohesive well written Star Trek script and just because you and Phil say otherwise is not a reason to change my stance and why would you even bother and try to persuade me.You can call me all the things you want it still is no good argument against all the things I have written and have written in the past .And Strange New Worlds is doomed abroad because no chance in Hell people abroad are going to subscribe to three different streaming services to watch three different Trek show and certainly not with the upcoming Worldwide economic crisis.