@superboy97 said: The move of a show is when the original broadcaster says : "I stop this show, but it will continue on another network".

That never actually happens unless the same company owns both networks. It's always that the first network cancels it, and then another network picks it up. As far as the original network is concerned, the show is dead to them. They're not sending it off to another network. The studio producing the show shops it around to other networks after they are canceled, and sometimes it's picked up. That's what happened here.

The early cancellation of a show is when the original broadcaster just says : "I stop this show". Sometimes, the show is bought later by another network and broadcasted again, eventually with episodes not broadcasted the first time, but it isn't anymore the original run.

The original run is the first time any episode is aired. These episodes had not been aired before this week, so this is still part of the original run for the season.

They haven't been broadcasted as numbered episodes during the original run of the season.

Yes they have, because the original run of the season includes the broadcast of the new episodes, which were broadcast as numbered episodes on a new network that acquired them. If episodes are still being broadcast, then the "original run" isn't over. There is no reason "original run" should only count for one network, if episodes are still being released.

The way Firefly episodes were listed was correct. The way The Nevers episodes are listed is incorrect.

This is the reverse.

Only if you want to intentionally misinform people. They are numbered episodes, and were released as such. They are part of a season, and released as such. It is correct to label them that way.

Like I said, the logic you are using behind this supposed rule is deeply flawed. It is directly leading to incorrect labeling of episodes. On top of that, there is no benefit to that rule. Doing it that way accomplishes nothing but misinforming people who are trying to use this site to get the information they need about the show they're watching.

@superboy97 said: The move of a show is when the original broadcaster says : "I stop this show, but it will continue on another network".

Is that so? What about Manifest, or The Expanse?

The early cancellation of a show is when the original broadcaster just says : "I stop this show". Sometimes, the show is bought later by another network and broadcasted again, eventually with episodes not broadcasted the first time, but it isn't anymore the original run.

This is exactly what happened in both examples above. Yet you don't list season 4 of Manifest or seasons 4-6 of The Expanse as specials.

They haven't been broadcasted as numbered episodes during the original run of the season.

That's not entirely true. The "original run" was supposed to consist of two parts, as described here. Part One was broadcasted as intended, Part Two was never announced and eventually passed over by the owner (Warner Bros.) to another broadcaster, in this case, a FAST channel on Tubi. Which become, essentially, the original broadcast of Part Two.

@morphinapg said:

The original run is the first time any episode is aired. These episodes had not been aired before this week, so this is still part of the original run for the season.

The original run is the first run of the series by the original broadcaster. We aren't anymore in the original run.

@shotfirer said:

@superboy97 said: The move of a show is when the original broadcaster says : "I stop this show, but it will continue on another network".

Is that so? What about Manifest, or The Expanse?

The early cancellation of a show is when the original broadcaster just says : "I stop this show". Sometimes, the show is bought later by another network and broadcasted again, eventually with episodes not broadcasted the first time, but it isn't anymore the original run.

This is exactly what happened in both examples above. Yet you don't list season 4 of Manifest or seasons 4-6 of The Expanse as specials.

Here, we are talking of changes during a season, not between seasons. This is not the same thing.

@superboy97 said:

@morphinapg said:

@superboy97 said: They weren't broadcasted as such during the original run of the series on HBO.

I really don't understand why this matters. Shows change networks all the time. That's what happened. It should be irrelevant if the original network canceled it and it was picked up by another, because that's usually why shows change networks. What should matter is labeling the episodes correctly. They are numbered episodes, as part of the season. That is the accurate way to label them.

The move of a show is when the original broadcaster says : "I stop this show, but it will continue on another network".

The early cancellation of a show is when the original broadcaster just says : "I stop this show". Sometimes, the show is bought later by another network and broadcasted again, eventually with episodes not broadcasted the first time, but it isn't anymore the original run.

Here, we are in the second case.

The definition of specials appears to even specifically be about content that is not listed as a numbered episode as part of a season. These episodes are numbered episodes part of the season.

They haven't been broadcasted as numbered episodes during the original run of the season.

The way Firefly episodes were listed was correct. The way The Nevers episodes are listed is incorrect.

This is the reverse.

Ok so now you are talking about something that the special rule doesn't mention at all to justify labelling these episodes as special.

You acknowledge that these episodes are numbered episodes which did not air as part of the original run on HBO.

And you also acknowledge that the final episodes of firefly were numbered episodes which did not air in its original run on fox.

Yet the final episodes of firefly are not special. But you continue to insist that the final episodes of the nevers are special.

Are you just being needlessly pedantic at this point?

I think this occurrence highlights the need for the special rule to be amended with some wording to account for uncancellation or distribution on a network or digital provider after the original run has ended. Judged on a case by case basis.

The situation with this show is totally unique. Had the show just been cancelled hbo would have aired the final episodes or they would have been bought by whoever or released on Blu-ray. But the whole whedon controversy and COVID and wb/hbo writing stuff off for tax and cancellation and we are where we are today. (At least that appears to me to be why these episodes weren't just aired on hbo, correct me if I'm wrong).

But as a responsible moderator you should recognize that the rules are there to keep the information on tmdb correct. But they aren't sacrosanct. Under unique circumstances a little leeway to ensure the integrity of the information on tmdb is better than strict adherence to the rules that results in information on the database which is patently false.

@superboy97 said: The original run is the first run of the series by the original broadcaster. We aren't anymore in the original run.

Here, we are talking of changes during a season, not between seasons. This is not the same thing.

There's no reason to define it that way. Shows can change networks for a variety of reasons, at a variety of different times. There's no reason to treat that change happening between seasons or in the middle of a season any differently. Another example of this is Selfie, starring Karen Gillan. The show wasn't performing well on broadcast TV, so the network stopped airing new episodes on ABC, and continued airing them on Hulu. The primary network changed in the middle of a season, while the show was still airing. The episodes even changed direction slightly to occasionally allow language that wouldn't otherwise be allowed on national broadcast networks for the final episodes. Despite having a single season, Selfie is shown as having two primary networks for this very reason. The same should apply to The Nevers. Two primary networks, one season.

@morphinapg said:

@superboy97 said: The original run is the first run of the series by the original broadcaster. We aren't anymore in the original run.

Here, we are talking of changes during a season, not between seasons. This is not the same thing.

There's no reason to define it that way.

The "Early cancellation" rule is specific for that kind of changes.

@superboy97 said: The "Early cancellation" rule is specific for that kind of changes.

As I have said, there is no beneficial reason to having that rule. It only results in incorrect information. Specials should only describe content that was not released as a numbered episode as part of a season, regardless of the place, time, or method of release. The rule is simply wrong. Who do we have to appeal to, to get it changed? The only time an early cancellation should shift episodes to specials is if those episodes are never released as numbered episodes.

I have also given an example of a show that transferred its primary network in the middle of one season, where that change was respected by TMDB by listing two networks despite having a single season. These situations are not common, but they do happen, and when they do, it is correct to consider the new network as part of the original broadcast, to consider those episodes as part of the season.

And it's clear the exact wording of the early cancellation rule should be amended to account for unusual situations like this one.

Where episodes which you yourself have already acknowledged are numbered episodes of the season are distributed via a different media even though the show has already been cancelled.

As these episodes are airing on a digital broadcast channel and later will be available on Roku the database should reflect that. Rather than the current erroneous indication that these episodes are not part of the first season.

@superboy97 said:

@morphinapg said:

The original run is the first time any episode is aired. These episodes had not been aired before this week, so this is still part of the original run for the season.

The original run is the first run of the series by the original broadcaster. We aren't anymore in the original run.

And how does it differ from any other show which was canceled, and then eventually picked up by another network and continued? I gave you two examples above, in another thread people mention Clone Wars. And there are many examples of change within the season, if that's the main concern, not between seasons. Here's a couple: Killer Women was removed from the air after 6 episodes. Eps. 6 and 8 were only released digitally. Yet you list them among the regular episodes. The Fosters was canceled by ABC Family after 10 episodes of season 3. Later moved to Freeform, and continued its run starting from episode 3x11. By your logic, episodes 3x11-3x20 should be listed as specials, yet they are listed along with the regular episodes. Season 3 of The Fosters has two different networks listed, but each of them broadcasted only half of the season. The situation with The Nevers is exactly the same, so why it should be resolved differently in a much less logical way? What stops you from listing all 12 episodes in season 1 and simply adding Tubi as a second network to the season?

@shotfirer said:

@superboy97 said:

@morphinapg said:

The original run is the first time any episode is aired. These episodes had not been aired before this week, so this is still part of the original run for the season.

The original run is the first run of the series by the original broadcaster. We aren't anymore in the original run.

And how does it differ from any other show which was canceled, and then eventually picked up by another network and continued? I gave you two examples above, in another thread people mention Clone Wars. And there are many examples of change within the season, if that's the main concern, not between seasons. Here's a couple: Killer Women was removed from the air after 6 episodes. Eps. 6 and 8 were only released digitally. Yet you list them among the regular episodes. The Fosters was canceled by ABC Family after 10 episodes of season 3. Later moved to Freeform, and continued its run starting from episode 3x11. By your logic, episodes 3x11-3x20 should be listed as specials, yet they are listed along with the regular episodes. Season 3 of The Fosters has two different networks listed, but each of them broadcasted only half of the season. The situation with The Nevers is exactly the same, so why it should be resolved differently in a much less logical way? What stops you from listing all 12 episodes in season 1 and simply adding Tubi as a second network to the season?

Judging by the lack of reports on Killer Women, no moderator would be aware of this unless they watched the series. If the unaired episodes were only released digitally, they should really be moved to the Specials season.

The Fosters is not a good example since it wasn’t canceled mid-season. ABC Family was rebranded to Freeform and the series continued there.

I have to agree with the community rather than the mods on this one. I don't know if I've seen this explicitly mentioned here, but the idea around having episodes considers as Specials vs. normal episodes in a season (regardless of cancellation, networks, etc) should always be around what the narrative intent of the show is. If I'm watching this show, in its entirety of Season 1, then it is logical and artistically congruent with the creators' intent to have these next 6 episodes follow directly after the first 6. (I did see the link references where the show's creators had this second set of 6 episodes marked as "Part 2" of Season 1, so that is confirmed outside of our discussion). The separation of the episodes as Specials should follow the logic of what the artistic intent was for the show, not whether or not some arcane and creatively unrelated business deal changed where the show is aired. That would be like moving the episodes to Specials because the network changed the resolution or audio format of the broadcast - it does not reflect or tie into the course of the story. The only driving force for this choice should be what the creators intended, and in this case, it was to finish the remaining story of Season 1.

@raze464 said: The Fosters is not a good example since it wasn’t canceled mid-season. ABC Family was rebranded to Freeform and the series continued there.

That's not the point. The point is, the season has two networks, without any way to say (except a guess), which episode aired on which network, and it creates exactly zero issues. The seasons are consistent, and the users are happy. So the main question is, why are you so eager to use the rule which does not exactly fit the situation, and actually does not explicitly explain, what to do when the show gets picked up by a different network in the middle of the season, not between seasons?

There's no other explanation for slapping the rule which renders metadata unusable, except "because we can". If some rule forces you to store the metadata in a way that defies any obvious logic and basically renders it unusable, any sane person will question the rule, and seek to review and update it, or at least apply it selectively, where it really makes sense, not the other way around.

So...will there be any further discussion on this one? Truly, since TMDB is a service that serves the community, and the community wants to be served this specific way, isn't it possible to review this policy and make an exception? Isn't that what helps us out the most? I don't mean to selfishly focus on the users, but I think it's fair to say that most people interface with TMDB in order to populate metadata on their personal collections (be it through Plex or some other service) and not directly, so whatever makes that best would be the thing to do, no? Just trying to keep the conversation live on this - it is important enough that several of us have shown up here to express our preference. I hope that'll be sufficient to have this policy reviewed.

@shotfirer said:

@raze464 said: The Fosters is not a good example since it wasn’t canceled mid-season. ABC Family was rebranded to Freeform and the series continued there.

That's not the point. The point is, the season has two networks, without any way to say (except a guess), which episode aired on which network, and it creates exactly zero issues. The seasons are consistent, and the users are happy.

Again, that season of The Fosters has two networks because of how we deal with networks rebrands; whenever a network undergoes a significant rebrand, a new network page should be created for the rebranded network. There's no clear way to tell which episodes aired on ABC Family and which aired on Freeform but, at least for that show, it doesn't really matter since ABC Family and Freeform are the same network, we just list them separately.

So the main question is, why are you so eager to use the rule which does not exactly fit the situation, and actually does not explicitly explain, what to do when the show gets picked up by a different network in the middle of the season, not between seasons?

I am not "eager" to use any rule. For this show, I wasn't sure of show it should be listed post-cancelation or if Tubi and/or Roku should be added as networks so I asked for the opinion of other moderators, giving them the facts available at the time. Once more information became available, it was clear that the show wasn't even going to be added to Tubi-proper, but on a new FAST channel created specifically for Warner Bros. content, which I'm not sure if the FAST channels are even considered to be part of Tubi (the network available on TMDB) or if they are considered to be a "digital release."

There's no other explanation for slapping the rule which renders metadata unusable, except "because we can". If some rule forces you to store the metadata in a way that defies any obvious logic and basically renders it unusable, any sane person will question the rule, and seek to review and update it, or at least apply it selectively, where it really makes sense, not the other way around.

In the case of early cancellations, regular episodes being added as specials just means the network didn't air those episodes. That's literally all it means.

There can be exceptions to the rules, either the ones mentioned in the Contribution Bible or a few approved by the admin, but if the rules, including the early cancellation rule, are applied selectively to where it makes sense, then there's no point in having rules that apply to everything.